Roberto Martinez discussion

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Howard needs taking out of the team permantently.

It's clear as day he is petrified of playing at Goodison. He must get 45 minutes of abuse directly in his ear from the Gwladys Street fans and how's he supposed to perform well like that? He only really has himself to blame due to his awful, awful form.

As a result of his failures the rest of the defenders are walking on eggshells, not sure whether to play it to him for the risk of him cocking it up and the atmosphere turning even more poisonous, or taking a risk and taking a player on, or the easy pass, the long ball, etc.

It's best for all concerned if Robles come in, and the thing is: he deserves is! It's just crazy he hasn't already been in the team, and the blame lies directly at the feet of the manager.
 
I've come to the conclusion that Martinez simply can't coach a team to defend well. Or at all. Our defensive record in the first season was seemingly down to Moyes; it was his back five and they were still in a Moyes mindset of defensive discipline.

The individual errors have lessened and I realised they are a natural phase when you're trying to instil possession football. That's fine. But we don't press, we don't track runners well, the marking at set pieces is atrocious, we crumble under any pressure and the keeper is a less safe pair of hands than Purple Aki in a YMCA.

The posts from Wigan fans yonks ago ring terrifyingly true and it implies, rather worryingly, that Martinez will not evolve. I really thought we'd said goodbye to the days of having such a stubborn manager when Moyes did one.
 
Ashtonian said:
the problem here mate is that this philosophy that he has, has not changed since we reached wigan, and he has said himself he won't change it. He sent Wigan down on the back of a poor defense, we are currently mid table now because of a poor defense, its a pattern that probably won't change. but it isn't the players, or largely down to the players as these are largely the same that shut out most weeks under the previous manager. the question then is why have baines coleman and jags forgotton how to defend? Unless it is under different instructions from the manager and they don't essentially work.

We could sign anyone we wanted for defense but jags was recently the England captain and mori has won the south american champions league, so between them and stones price tag there should be enough quality there to not concede 3 goals in 15 minutes for example.
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THis is why the 'philosophy' needs to change, and personally I think it will, gradually. The situation at Wigan was different, there is /was not the pressure there is at Everton, or the expectation. Winning the Cup is the best memory ever for Wigan supporters, being relegated was something they had expected for years.
 
steken1 said:
That's because I actually believe you to be Bill Kenright! But still a good pijnt well made
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:) Brilliant ! I was ill most of last year, and I'm older than Bill, and in some ways I'm in the same business as him, but I always stood in the Paddock, and was never in Corrie. Ah well !!( I do have an entry in Imdb.com, though!...but you won't find it under Steve Wigan!! (cue daft jokes from the usual suspects!!!)
 

There is so much right about what he does , he is definitely building something worthwhile.

However, he has to know that a team is built on it's defence and not on it's attack.
Utd under SAF played real attacking football, but it was always built on a mean defence.

I think the team selection tonight will be hugely interesting.
It does appear that Coleman, Jagielka, Mori, Stones and Baines are available.
Unless he switches to five at the back somebody will lose out, I wonder who ?
Will he have the courage to drop Stones ?
 
Steve Wigan said:
THis is why the 'philosophy' needs to change, and personally I think it will, gradually. The situation at Wigan was different, there is /was not the pressure there is at Everton, or the expectation. Winning the Cup is the best memory ever for Wigan supporters, being relegated was something they had expected for years.
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Is that still the case though? I remember a lot of Wigan fans on phone ins disagreeing with you there, saying they'd rather stay in the Premiership, but a few saying they're happy to have won the cup.

Fast forward 3 years and now they're 4th in League 1 and the Premiership is just about to get even richer, making it even harder for people to break in to, I'd be surprised if that FA Cup win was still worth it.

Martinez has shown no signs at Wigan he was going to change anything, and has struggled now for 18 months at Everton and again shown no signs he will change anything. He continues to come out with the same rhetoric regarding how we'll play, which leads me to believe he'll never change.

People are hoping for something to happen when none of the evidence suggests that it will.
 
Steve Wigan said:
THis is why the 'philosophy' needs to change, and personally I think it will, gradually. The situation at Wigan was different, there is /was not the pressure there is at Everton, or the expectation. Winning the Cup is the best memory ever for Wigan supporters, being relegated was something they had expected for years.
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I'd argue the opposite, there is no pressure on him here whatsoever. At least at wigan he was fighting to stay up every year, what has he genuinely got here? As long as he conceded he won't have a big transfer fund, the board will let him run wild. Hell the 11 wins in 51 games with the players he has would be alarm bells elsewhere, but the club that gave moyes 11 years to win nothing is not going to be even having words with roberto as long as he keeps towing the line and doesn't do a drastic job .

Remember not too long ago, three longest serving managers?

ferguson- league titles, champions league twice, fa cup, league cup
Wenger- League, f.a cups, league cup
Moyes- nothing

Tells you all you need to know about pressure managing our club.
 
Steve Wigan said:
Funny thing with the 'Anti Howard' agenda....a lot of people say that the defence is poor because 'they don't trust Howard' but the argument could equally be that Howard is nervous because he does not trust the defence in front of him(Stones dwelling on the ball, Mori's occasional misplaced pass, Colemans poor positional play, Baines...always better(excellent in fact) going forward than as a retreating defender, always allowing the winger to cross.....)
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I think it's more because he's absolutely appalling, can't save shots and keeps making stupid mistakes to cost us points. Doesn't help that he hardly ever communicates with his defenders like. It's not an "agenda", it's based on facts
 
Steve Wigan said:
Funny thing with the 'Anti Howard' agenda....a lot of people say that the defence is poor because 'they don't trust Howard' but the argument could equally be that Howard is nervous because he does not trust the defence in front of him(Stones dwelling on the ball, Mori's occasional misplaced pass, Colemans poor positional play, Baines...always better(excellent in fact) going forward than as a retreating defender, always allowing the winger to cross.....)
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Funny how that defence seems to looks more solid and composed when Robles is behind them.
 

Steve Wigan said:
I honestly feel that Martinez could be very successful at Everton...his biggest problem is himself, are rather his basic philosophy, which he is finding very hard to change. There is nothing wrong with liking the 'beautiful game' of football, but defending can be as 'beautiful' as great attacking play, and Martinez needs to realise this. I think he will.....he is right to keep saying that Everton is a work in progress, and when we get the defensive side right, we will have some consistent success, not flash in the pan single season success. As well as Martinez chaning his philosophy, supporters also have to change the way they think, and become more patient....an even harder task than the one facing Martinez.
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What evidence is there for any of this happening. 18 months of the same issues and nothings changed. After how many seasons do we decide that actually he's never going to change.
 
The Hibbert Agenda said:
Roberto Martínez has responded to criticism of his defensive record at Evertonand Wigan Athletic with the frank admission he would never base a performance around keeping a clean sheet.

No team has conceded more goals at home in the Premier League this season than Everton, with Swansea City’s victory at Goodison Park on Sunday increasing that tally to 22. By contrast, only three Premier League teams have conceded fewer goals on their travels than Everton. They have lost only once away in the league, at Arsenal, and are the only side to have prevented Manchester City scoring at the Etihad Stadium this term.

Another clean sheet at City on Wednesday would take Martínez’s team into the Capital One Cup final, with Everton holding a 2-1 advantage from the semi-final first leg. But their manager, who faced similar criticism when Wigan were relegated in 2013 having conceded 73 goals, insists he would never approach a game focusing solely on stopping the opposition.

“My philosophy and my way of working is not to keep clean sheets, my philosophy is to win games,” he said. “It’s a very general assessment to say we don’t defend well. If you look at our defensive record away from home this season and our record at home, it’s completely the opposite. That doesn’t mean we play in a different manner away from home – we’ve got the same personnel, the same way of playing – so there are aspects that are affecting the manner of goals we are conceding.”

“As a manager, I want to defend but would I base the performance on wanting to keep a clean sheet? No. I base the performance on getting on the ball, having a big role, dictating and having a positive approach and scoring goals. Our team is top in the league for goals scored from open play.

“That’s down to the talent we have and the work we do, but that doesn’t mean I would neglect defending. You have to do both. I think that’s an easy way of giving a view on something, you have to go a bit deeper and my philosophy is winning games, not keeping clean sheets. Other managers prefer to be defensive, give you the ball and then there’s always an error. What I like is an action that’s about winning games and achieving things.”

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Martínez insists it would be a “big mistake” to approach the second leg with a completely defensive mindset against a City team with the most Premier League goals at home this season. Manuel Pellegrini’s side have scored 33 Premier League goals at the Etihad. Everton are second on the list with 24 at Goodison.

The Everton manager said: “It has to be a complete performance against this team. If you concentrate on defending there’ll be a moment when they break you down. We kept a clean sheet against them 11 days ago, we’re the only team to do that at the Etihad this season. We know what we have to do but I don’t think it’s enough to try and keep a clean sheet, you have to have a threat and have to dictate the game. I’ll send a team out there to win. It would be a danger to try to go out to keep a clean sheet. When you get to 80 minutes you can start to think about where you are in the tie but not earlier. It would be a big mistake.”

You know, I kind of admire how dogmatic he is. His madness is considered. I hope he turns it around but I have my doubts – his flaws seem inherent. If he fails he fails and we bring in Gary Megson. So be it. Such is life.
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See...one thing. He isnt very good at winning games either.......

essentially our game plan is at some point we will probably concede but as long as we score as well then win it is all fine, and we aren't winning the games.

If this was liverpool we would call any fan who bought into that as deluded, yet a lot of people lap it up still here.
 
blueblue said:
Will he have the courage to drop Stones ?
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Unfortunately I think no is the answer but it's something that needs to happen.
It's great to allow kids to make mistakes and learn from them but what stones did against Swansea has been coming for a while. Doesn't seem to be learning.

It's not good telling the fans to calm down one week and then turning around in the same situation and doing that. Sometimes you need to just clear it. If the forward knows you will always try to play it out they are obviously going to press. Mix it up a little.
 


Win games, not keep clean sheets.

Fair enough, at least it's not the "play attractive football regardless of the result" stance I was fearing. The plan at least, is to win games.

But why not keep clean sheets and win? That would keep our blood pressure down.
 

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