Roberto Martinez discussion

[Saint Domingo]

Okay, fair point, but again, you seem to think i'm hiding behind the injuries as an excuse. I wasn't, I was merely stating that Martinez, this season, has not had what many would consider our 'first choice' defence to pick from, until Wednesday just gone vs City.

What do you believe our targets were? Fan targets and targets of the team differ.

I think we can guarantee that neither of the above included us being 12th at the start of Feb in those targets. Fair enough?

I presume the team/manager's realistic target at the start of the season was to be in the mix for a European place by around this time. That has not been met, yet. We are, however, not far away, despite all of the poor results. Now, that is down in large part to teams like United/Chelsea etc having shocking seasons by their own standards. However, that is the situation we find ourselves in. We are as close to sixth as we are 18th. The season is well and truly in the balance. I don't believe, based on that, that now would be a good time to change managers - especially when all the people suggesting we should have so far offered no viable alternatives that would guarantee an improvement on what we have that are available/would join us at this time.

It's been the same line for the last 18 months though 'it could go either way' 'we're only 6 points off Europe'. We might upturn in form but based on the last 18 months we probably won't. Potentially we might still finish 7th or 8th and I'm sure that would be enough for some but as you say with the league like iris this season was a perfect opportunity for us to do something big. An opportunity not only missed, but we've actually not yet hit even our minimum expectation. Very poor.

 

[BlueToff]

We've all been following footie long enough to know that no one can be guaranteed to be a success, and in this case the outcome of either sacking or keeping can't be predicted with any certainty. Everything brings a risk, I suppose the trick is to minimise those risks that can cause most damage. At the moment I think IMHO that RM is a liability for the club and things are getting steadily worse. That doesn't mean that the new guy would be any better just because you make a change, but to me that risk of making a change is lower than staying as we are.

Well put post mate. Don't agree with your opinion but agree with the risk principle. I believe that there would be less risk in staying with RM at this point. So we're just coming down on opposite sides of the same coin really. Suppose we'll see.

 

[BlueToff]

because I watch our games

So do I. And I think that he is still the right man for the job. So again, just opinions.

 

[TheHumbleEgg]

Yes, it's a job for life.

*with NO expectation

 

[ToffeeDoug]

99 league games under RM.

Wins 39
Draws 31
Losses 29
Goals for 149 (av. pm 1.51)
Goals conceded 123 (av. pm 1.24)

21 of those wins were in his first season. That leaves 18 wins from the last 61 games. The trend is all important here, fewer games being won over time and more goals are being conceded (84 in the past 61 games, av. pm 1.38). The goals conceded this season (34 in 23 games, av. pm of 1.48) are turning wins into draws rather than draws into losses. 11 draws this season, as many as the whole of last season and already more than in 2013/14. The trend is blatant evidence of a considerable under-achievement, with the problem becoming worse.

 

[ToffeeTim]

99 league games under RM.

Wins 39
Draws 31
Losses 29
Goals for 149 (av. pm 1.51)
Goals conceded 123 (av. pm 1.24)

21 of those wins were in his first season. That leaves 18 wins from the last 61 games. The trend is all important here, fewer games being won over time and more goals are being conceded (84 in the past 61 games, av. pm 1.38). The goals conceded this season (34 in 23 games, av. pm of 1.48) are turning wins into draws rather than draws into losses. 11 draws this season, as many as the whole of last season and already more than in 2013/14. The trend is blatant evidence of a considerable under-achievement, with the problem becoming worse.

Damning stuff. No response to that.

 

[BlueToff]

It's been the same line for the last 18 months though 'it could go either way' 'we're only 6 points off Europe'. We might upturn in form but based on the last 18 months we probably won't. Potentially we might still finish 7th or 8th and I'm sure that would be enough for some but as you say with the league like iris this season was a perfect opportunity for us to do something big. An opportunity not only missed, but we've actually not yet hit even our minimum expectation. Very poor.

I don't believe we should sack our manager in the middle of the season based on 'probables' though. It should be based on definites. Our defence has shown signs of improvement since the turn of the year. A one-off semi-final defeat away at City doesn't change that.

From four league games in 2016 (Spurs at home, City away, Chelsea away, Swansea at home), we've conceded 7 goals. We've scored 5. We've picked up three points.

It's not good enough - I never said it was. But in the four games prior to that (Norwich away, Leicester at home, Newcastle away, Stoke at home) we conceded 8, and scored 7.

So, no, not loads of improvement, but it is there, especially considering the teams we have faced in the league so far in 2016...

 

[BlueToff]

99 league games under RM.

Wins 39
Draws 31
Losses 29
Goals for 149 (av. pm 1.51)
Goals conceded 123 (av. pm 1.24)

21 of those wins were in his first season. That leaves 18 wins from the last 61 games. The trend is all important here, fewer games being won over time and more goals are being conceded (84 in the past 61 games, av. pm 1.38). The goals conceded this season (34 in 23 games, av. pm of 1.48) are turning wins into draws rather than draws into losses. 11 draws this season, as many as the whole of last season and already more than in 2013/14. The trend is blatant evidence of a considerable under-achievement, with the problem becoming worse.

Too many draws. Need to improve the defence. I believe we've shown signs since the turn of the year that we are recovering some of that solidity. Still not the best, no, but getting it back somewhat. I'm willing to give it a little while longer.

 

[deipnosophist]

So do I. And I think that he is still the right man for the job. So again, just opinions.

Of course mate. I believe the expression is modus vivendi i.e. live and let live. I am not a strident anti-Martinez-ist, I just don't see him as the man to take us forward. I genuinely hope I am wrong, but the results (and his overall PL record) suggest I am not.

 

[BlueToff]

Of course mate. I believe the expression is modus vivendi i.e. live and let live. I am not a strident anti-Martinez-ist, I just don't see him as the man to take us forward. I genuinely hope I am wrong, but the results suggest I am not.

Fair enough mate. Let's agree to disagree for now then? I'm not a strident pro-Martinez either. I admit he's got things wrong - for the life of me, his loyalty to Howard continues to perplex me, for example, and when I believe the team/manager needs criticising (e.g. like Swansea last week) I will do.

 

[Stanley Parker]

99 league games under RM.

Goals for 149 (av. pm 1.51)
Goals conceded 123 (av. pm 1.24)

Damning stuff. No response to that.

We score more goals than we concede.

That must give us some hope.

Most teams don't even manage to do that.

 

[Stanley Parker]

*with NO expectation

That depends what you are hoping for!

 

[BlueToff]

Mate, y'know what, although we disagree you do make some BOSS arguments & reasoning for the 'for' camp...but this though above, y'know, we threw away a 2 goal lead...at 64 minutes. Forget 'the decision', it's gone, it stood...fact is we again threw away a lead because we couldn't kill the game and because we're defensively inept at times.

We had a mad five minutes mate - I've said that. Martinez said that. It was poor for that five minutes and Chelsea, the home side with their £200million forward line, broke through down to a mistake from our most experienced defender/goalkeeper and poor marking in their build up to the second goal (again, a fortunate deflection, but it should never have got to that stage to get a shot off).

The reason I can't just 'forget' that decision is that, despite throwing away our earlier lead, we had defied the odds by not capitulating, we had re-grouped and we had gone on to get the goal that, if the officials had done their job (i'm suggesting no bias, I'm simply saying they were totally incompetent) we would have got the win. We would have been 10th, we would have had the confidence etc....

If's and but's, I know, but in that case, we literally had no time to react. If the decision had been in say, the 87th minute, it would have been horrid, but at least you could say we had some more time to try and get back from it. To have it done like that, 55 seconds over the allotted time (where the rules seemed to be applied differently every week by different refs), is gutting - and it's fine margins out of Martinez' control.

And even then, Martinez stated yesterday - that (and I quote) "we must apply ourselves better in those fine margins" - yet again, he gets accused (not by everybody I know, but by certain fans) of deflecting blame?

 

[ToffeeDoug]

We score more goals than we concede.

That must give us some hope.

Most teams don't even manage to do that.

It gives us an expectation that we should be winning more games! "Most teams" don't have a squad good enough to be challenging for a top 5 spot.

 

[BlueToff]

We score more goals than we concede.

That must give us some hope.

Most teams don't even manage to do that.

It's what's giving me the hope, combined with the slight improvement (both in terms of stats and visibly on the pitch) improvement in our defending since the turn of the year that we can get a run together and improve. It's why I'm willing to give RM a bit more time.

He's improved the attacking from last season (we have already scored 40 goals in PL, compared to 48 total last season), so hopefully he can show signs of getting the defence back to what it was in that first season.