Roberto Martinez discussion

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Stanley Parker said:
If we score more goals than we concede, we're bound to win some games, aren't we?

I suppose it might be just the one. In which case, I hope it's the derby.

What an indignity - being beaten at home by a team going down.
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I don't get your point mate no disrespect. Goal difference is largely irrelevant. We could have ten games, nine 0-1s and a 10-0 win. A positive GD and three points from 30.

Our points total is appalling, and our defensive is alarmingly poor. Our home form is nothing short of a disgrace and we got knocked out of a semi final despite being two goals up. It's a quite a state we're in.
 
BlueToff said:
I thought the below was what you'd replied to/taken that comment from. Apologies - it was @SaintDomingo who I had replied to with that. In my defence, I had mentioned league games, just got my posts mixed up.


I don't believe we should sack our manager in the middle of the season based on 'probables' though. It should be based on definites. Our defence has shown signs of improvement since the turn of the year. A one-off semi-final defeat away at City doesn't change that.

From four league games in 2016 (Spurs at home, City away, Chelsea away, Swansea at home), we've conceded 7 goals. We've scored 5. We've picked up three points.

It's not good enough - I never said it was. But in the four games prior to that (Norwich away, Leicester at home, Newcastle away, Stoke at home) we conceded 8, and scored 7.

So, no, not loads of improvement, but it is there, especially considering the teams we have faced in the league so far in 2016...
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Got to be honest, I'm struggling to see a positive improvement here.

Four games in 2016 - no wins, two draws, one defeat (against one of the worst teams in the league, at home, who hadn't ever beat us in league football) - two points
Four prior games - two defeats, one win, one draw - four points

Conceded more goals
Scored just two more goals against rank opposition

2016 run - two top half teams
prior run - two top half teams

whole run - three home games, three defeats

What are the probables we'd be sacking him on? 18 in 61 isn't a probable - it has actually happened. Walter Smith managed 18 in 67 and was rightly sacked.
 

orly said:
Got to be honest, I'm struggling to see a positive improvement here.

Four games in 2016 - no wins, two draws, one defeat (against one of the worst teams in the league, at home, who hadn't ever beat us in league football) - two points
Four prior games - two defeats, one win, one draw - four points

Conceded more goals
Scored just two more goals against rank opposition

2016 run - two top half teams
prior run - two top half teams

whole run - three home games, three defeats

What are the probables we'd be sacking him on? 18 in 61 isn't a probable - it has actually happened. Walter Smith managed 18 in 67 and was rightly sacked.
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Sorry mate I made a mistake in my OP.

Goals conceded 2016 (league)

Spurs - 1
City - 0
Chelsea - 3
Swansea - 2
Total - 6

I'd say given two of the sides were Chelsea and City away and Spurs (the in-form side in the league), we did okay to concede 4 goals from the three (again, one of which should not have counted and cost us the win, but it did).

We have conceded two less goals from the opening four games (against, IMO, harder oppo on the whole) of 2016 than we did in the final four of 2015.

It's not massive improvement, no, but it is at least an improvement in the stats, while the signs on the pitch have been there (e.g. keeping City out, keeping Spurs out bar a very good goal from them). The worry has been the five minutes against Chelsea that we conceded two goals, and the performance in the first half vs Swansea last week.

If we can keep a clean sheet tomorrow, big if, but if we can, then try and carry that into the Newcastle game, I think it will put us in good stead.
 
ToffeeTim said:
I don't get your point mate no disrespect. Goal difference is largely irrelevant. We could have ten games, nine 0-1s and a 10-0 win. A positive GD and three points from 30.

Our points total is appalling, and our defensive is alarmingly poor. Our home form is nothing short of a disgrace and we got knocked out of a semi final despite being two goals up. It's a quite a state we're in.
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But the 10-0 win could be at Anfield. Just imagine!
 
Zatara said:
Ignore everything else and lets say for example we are taken over and have loads of cash to spend and Martinez has the full confidence of the new owners.

If in the summer he was able to shift out whatever players he wanted and keep all the players he wanted to + sign his 1st choice targets (within reason) who fit his style of play....and lets say they are all in the bracket he spends money on (under 25 with huge potential...

Do you not think with one season playing together nexf year and getting to know each other as a team (bar ref decisions and loads of key injuries) he would have us hitting close to top 4 with his team and the following season with the extra experience and development for the young players he would get us top 4?

Because i firmly believe if he is able to build his squad then we will achieve top 4...its no use giving someone with a massively different approach to other managers and then not having long term patience to let him build a squad....

Whats the worst that can happen, were mid-table and have a load of potential superstars ready for another manager to utlize?

The positives of patience for me far outweigh te negatives....

We dont know what happens behind the scenes but if you subscribe to the gradual inprovement of the squad then in the summer we will have a new keeper and a star left winger + more decent additions....even with the disasters this year we would be several positions higher just with a couple of better players than kone and howard.
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Honestly mate, the answer is no.

Was the squad last season better than his first, yup, is the squad this season better than last - again it is. Is that being reflected with the teams 'improvement' - nope, the team if anything is regressing in terms of results.

You for example could put Moyes in charge of Barcelona and eventually they would play dour and defensive minded football and they would start to regress, you could put Martinez in charge of Barca and they would attack without a thought to pressing the opponent or defence and they would start to regress.

Right at this minute Martinez has a defence comprised of 3 England Internationals - Stones, Jagielka and Baines, and Argentinian international - Mori, A Republic of Ireland international - Coleman, all of whom are highly rated, he has a young highly touted player in Galloway in addition. and collectively they can't defend to save their lives, they are protected by two holding midfielders in Barry and McCarthy who are both highly rated and praised as quality players, and still we can't defend to save our lives.

You could put Martinez in charge of any team in this league and within 2-3 seasons they would start to ship 50-60+ goals a season. We need to stop trying to kid ourselves that this is some form of long term project and when it clicks we will be winning every game 5-0 with 100% possession, we can't defend under Martinez, arguably he has never had a team able to defend - was gifted his one defensively good season by the fortune of following Moyes regime, people have quoted the job he did managing to keep Wigan up for a few years, ultimately the way he did that by playing attacking footy isn't sustainable for any degree of success without a strong defensive foundation and long and the short of it we hired a manager who FAILED at Wigan.

Their are many managers out their that could do a better job than he can do from this point onward
 
BlueToff said:
Sorry mate I made a mistake in my OP.

Goals conceded 2016 (league)

Spurs - 1
City - 0
Chelsea - 3
Swansea - 2
Total - 6

I'd say given two of the sides were Chelsea and City away and Spurs (the in-form side in the league), we did okay to concede 4 goals from the three (again, one of which should not have counted and cost us the win, but it did).

We have conceded two less goals from the opening four games (against, IMO, harder oppo on the whole) of 2016 than we did in the final four of 2015.

It's not massive improvement, no, but it is at least an improvement in the stats, while the signs on the pitch have been there (e.g. keeping City out, keeping Spurs out bar a very good goal from them). The worry has been the five minutes against Chelsea that we conceded two goals, and the performance in the first half vs Swansea last week.

If we can keep a clean sheet tomorrow, big if, but if we can, then try and carry that into the Newcastle game, I think it will put us in good stead.
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But again though mate, it just isn't.

Less points
Still a -1 GD across the four games

No home win in what, four games? Five games? Am a bit scared to even look.

Tomorrow will probably be Kone up front (on his own maybe) Cleverley in midfield. Pretty chilling when you think we've been told Martinez has improved the squad.

I'm not advocating sacking him on the last ten games. I'm advocating his removal from that last 61 games - 18 wins! It's an absolute horror show.
 

bluestevon said:
Honestly mate, the answer is no.

Was the squad last season better than his first, yup, is the squad this season better than last - again it is. Is that being reflected with the teams 'improvement' - nope, the team if anything is regressing in terms of results.

You for example could put Moyes in charge of Barcelona and eventually they would play dour and defensive minded football and they would start to regress, you could put Martinez in charge of Barca and they would attack without a thought to pressing the opponent or defence and they would start to regress.

Right at this minute Martinez has a defence comprised of 3 England Internationals - Stones, Jagielka and Baines, and Argentinian international - Mori, A Republic of Ireland international - Coleman, all of whom are highly rated, he has a young highly touted player in Galloway in addition. and collectively they can't defend to save their lives, they are protected by two holding midfielders in Barry and McCarthy who are both highly rated and praised as quality players, and still we can't defend to save our lives.

You could put Martinez in charge of any team in this league and within 2-3 seasons they would start to ship 50-60+ goals a season. We need to stop trying to kid ourselves that this is some form of long term project and when it clicks we will be winning every game 5-0 with 100% possession, we can't defend under Martinez, arguably he has never had a team able to defend - was gifted his one defensively good season by the fortune of following Moyes regime, people have quoted the job he did managing to keep Wigan up for a few years, ultimately the way he did that by playing attacking footy isn't sustainable for any degree of success without a strong defensive foundation and long and the short of it we hired a manager who FAILED at Wigan.

Their are many managers out their that could do a better job than he can do from this point onward
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Martinez might regress too, to 2013/14.

In his first season, he introduced Barry and McCarthy and showed us how to defend better than Moyes,

2012/13 6 Everton 38 16 15 7 55 40 +15 63 Moyes
2013/14 5 Everton 38 21 09 8 61 39 +22 72 Martinez
 
orly said:
But again though mate, it just isn't.

Less points
Still a -1 GD across the four games

No home win in what, four games? Five games? Am a bit scared to even look.

Tomorrow will probably be Kone up front (on his own maybe) Cleverley in midfield. Pretty chilling when you think we've been told Martinez has improved the squad.

I'm not advocating sacking him on the last ten games. I'm advocating his removal from that last 61 games - 18 wins! It's an absolute horror show.
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I'm viewing it from a totally defensive point mate that I think shows we have at least showed signs of being able to concede less/not concede.

However, I agree that the results haven't been good enough.

That potentially stems from this thing that we have where it is almost like 'one or the other'. We defended well vs Spurs, but presented barely any threat until Besic came on.

With the City game (away in the league), we at least got at them in the first half and Hart had to pull off some very good saves, but we couldn't match that in the second half.

But when it all clicks which it has done a few times this season, we're a joy to watch and solid (e.g Sotton, Chelsea)

I think that's where my hope stems from that we can get it together. If the performances such as the ones I've mentioned above weren't present - that we'd only scraped 3-2 victories etc. or the perfromances had been like last season where we were slow going forward and stiull shaky at the back, then I would be more inclined to agree with the majority I think.

But I believe that we can get it together - like we've shown we can this term at times.
 

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