Roberto Martinez discussion

[MassBlue]

That may be the case for some clubs in the PL but I don't think that holds up against Everton and Evertonians in particular. I don't think there is a more tolerable bunch of fans in the premier league considering the absolute dross we've had to put up with over the years since the days of winning trophies.

Everton fans aren't the type to say "I want I want I want", that's saved for the bellends across the park that type of behaviour.

The problem is Martinez and Martinez alone and it's up to him to rectify the issues that not only fans can see, but like today Neville Southall has come out and said he needs to get a defensive coach to help him because it simply isn't good enough this season as a whole.

It's easy to ridicule fans ( not saying you have btw ) or come up with elaborate ways to defend Martinez. Not so easy when someone like Southall sees it and tells it like it is.


Anyways we are on a good run and I'm hopeful that it continues. I'm not 100% confident that Martinez is the right man to carry us forward or that we will have any kind of great end to the season, but a few more wins on the board in the league and an extended cup run would certainly help in that respect.

I respect your view and, as one of them, I agree that Everton fans are long suffering. I remember the days before Oxford U. That said, like Southall, I'm just trying to tell it as I see it. There is the obvious debate about Martinez in or out. But it feels like there's more going on, like changes norms about what it is to be a fan, and that are part of this. I used to hear over and over that three years is the time a manager gets to show what he can do, to build a team that is undeniably his, with his own philosophy. And if the ups and downs on the graph don't form an overall upward trend, then fair enough.
But the 'get the Spanish clown out' started, at the latest, in Jan of his second season. To me, you don't have to be a Martinez fan to wonder about how some people get to fume mode so quickly and with so little patience. And that maybe, as with the crowd at Goodison for the last 6-12 months, it just becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Not so much supporting as demanding that one's will comes to pass.

 

[BlueToff]

Doesn't really make his opinion any more valid

In fact it probably makes it less valid given his affinity for the club makes him a little biased

Think before posting will you

How?

He's still looking it at the situation objectively, it's just he knows and understands the club as well - and to a further extent so do Reid and Southall and the like.

Now none of them have even made noises about wanting Martinez out, and all can see that we play some sound togger. They also all see that there are some issues that need fixing but nothing that is so major it can't be ironed out (as our improved defending since the turn of the year but more specifically the last few games - shows). Now that doesn't mean the issue is totally solved, but a lot of the fan-base who are dead-set on wanting RM out seem to blatantly ignore the fact that he has tried to change it - or when he has get mad as it's not the changes they wanted to see.

 

[BiggyRat]

I think keeping Lukaku and Stones beyond the summer will be tough mind.

I think making the CL would've made that a lot easier.

 

[Chang Elephant]

People don't see the glaringly obvious though, he has gone to players like Barkley and Stones and said right you couldn't get into the team under the last regieme, your my future and I'm building a team around you

Barkley - wasted the full last season's development being intermittently dropped or played left wing.
Stones - subjected at the critical start point of his defending career to playing in front of a goalkeeping atrocity
They could have been developed better

 

[BlueStevie35]

Disagreed with daveks POV
Trashes Paul merson as a has been who's never managed and is only a pundit

Agreed with davek POV
Lauds Gary lineker a has been who's never managed and is only a pundit

Not to be a pedant but Merson has managed, albeit in the lower leagues with Walsall

 

[bluewally]

How?

He's still looking it at the situation objectively, it's just he knows and understands the club as well - and to a further extent so do Reid and Southall and the like.

Now none of them have even made noises about wanting Martinez out, and all can see that we play some sound togger. They also all see that there are some issues that need fixing but nothing that is so major it can't be ironed out (as our improved defending since the turn of the year but more specifically the last few games - shows). Now that doesn't mean the issue is totally solved, but a lot of the fan-base who are dead-set on wanting RM out seem to blatantly ignore the fact that he has tried to change it - or when he has get mad as it's not the changes they wanted to see.

How can someone with such an affinity for the club be said to be objective? Maybe because what he says suits your agenda?

Howard and stones getting injured is no credit to a manager.
It took two injuries for him to see what was blatantly obvious to we plotters who know nothing about football
He's changed nothing voluntarily

 

[deipnosophist]

martinet

noun


someone who stubbornly adheres to methods or rules

 

[BlueToff]

How can someone with such an affinity for the club be said to be objective? Maybe because what he says suits your agenda?

Howard and stones getting injured is no credit to a manager.
It took two injuries for him to see what was blatantly obvious to we plotters who know nothing about football
He's changed nothing voluntarily

No it doesn't suit my agenda - I'm stating that he has an understanding of the club which is a fact - he can still be objective. You don't have a problem with Southall or Reid saying it so why Linekar?

And no I'm not at all saying you don't know anything about football either.

Howard and Stones got injuries, but they were not solely down to our bad form - despite what you plotters think...

Howard was dreadful and should have been dropped long before, yes.

Stones - you're talking about one of the best young players in Europe. He had a spell of maybe two or three poor games. Hardly in terrible form.

You also haven't taken into account the return of Jagielka and McCarthy. Two key players in our side.

 

[bluewally]

No it doesn't suit my agenda - I'm stating that he has an understanding of the club which is a fact - he can still be objective. You don't have a problem with Southall or Reid saying it so why Linekar?

And no I'm not at all saying you don't know anything about football either.

Howard and Stones got injuries, but they were not solely down to our bad form - despite what you plotters think...

Howard was dreadful and should have been dropped long before, yes.

Stones - you're talking about one of the best young players in Europe. He had a spell of maybe two or three poor games. Hardly in terrible form.

You also haven't taken into account the return of Jagielka and McCarthy. Two key players in our side.

I never mentioned southall or Reid. I said you can't discredit Merson because he isn't connected to Everton

Lineker might be objective but in reality it's a very hard thing to do

And come on it perfectly suits what you and davek have been saying so of course you will champion it.

We will never know who's right on the last point but that's the beauty of football

But I honestly believe if anything changed us defensively it was those 2 injuries. If you are saying how much better we've been since then I don't see how you can disagree

 

[Neiler]

Barkley - wasted the full last season's development being intermittently dropped or played left wing.
Stones - subjected at the critical start point of his defending career to playing in front of a goalkeeping atrocity
They could have been developed better

Barkleys problem last season was going away all summer with England without a proper break during his first full season of senior football - i called it before it happened.

Yeah Howard is awful i couldnt defend that one, i believe Bobert had a lot of loyalty toward Howard because he one of the "old" Moyes senior players who backed him in the dressing room when things weren't at there best last season. Not sure loyalty is a bad trait even if Howard is turbo gash.

I actually think we would be better team without Stones, terrific footballer but not what we need.

Perhaps someting Martinez doesnt get a lot of credit for is the transition of the squad from the Moyes one. When you actually look at it he has slowly chipped away in this transtition as well as the change in philosphey.

Bobbie:

Lukaku
Kone
McCarthy
Robles
Mori
Del
Besic
Cleverly
Galloway
Niasse

Moyes old guard
Jags
Ossie
Baines
Pienaar
Howard
Hibbert
Mirallas
Coleman

I think players he deserves giving a chance to are:

Stones, Oviedo and Barkley

 

[BlueToff]

I never mentioned southall or Reid. I said you can't discredit Merson because he isn't connected to Everton

Lineker might be objective but in reality it's a very hard thing to do

And come on it perfectly suits what you and davek have been saying so of course you will champion it.

We will never know who's right on the last point but that's the beauty of football

But I honestly believe if anything changed us defensively it was those 2 injuries. If you are saying how much better we've been since then I don't see how you can disagree

I'm not discounting Merson mate, at all. It's a view and that's fine.

What I am saying is that I don't think you can compare that with Linekar in that at least Linekar has played for the club and understand's the frustrations of fans but is also pointing out that we're playing some of the best stuff we are in years.

Merson's view didn't really take that into account - rather just that this side is under-achieving (which again can't be just down to the manager and is equally as much down to the players) - and why it has been championed so much by the side of the argument that want him gone.

My point has been for the last few weeks that defensively we've looked better since the turn of the year - bar a few games.

The main change is Joel. I honestly believe that Martinez had finally got to the position where he knew that he needed to make the change, but fortunately for him he was saved making that call by an injury - so yeh we'll never know. However, since our markable up turn in form (last 5 games) we have had McCarthy back and also Jagielka fully match fit. Yes they're both liable to mistakes at times but overall we're so much better with them in.

In the end it boils down to the fact that - rightly or wrongly - RM isn't getting sacked. It's not to say your opinion isn't valid or that your points aren't correct (e.g. we all know he should have dropped Howard ages ago), but he isn't going anywhere.

Fans might as well get fully behind the team (which I can't imagine many don't do) rather than bemoan any mistake because for what it's worth the players obviously enjoy playing under Martinez and while it's been frustrating, there's still a third of the season left.

We're 11th, had one or two things gone our way at times we would be 6th, but they didn't. However, it goes to show just how close it is in the hunt for top 7. We're in the quarter final of the FA Cup and got to the semi-final in the league cup, playing some superb attacking stuff and scoring the third highest goals total in the league (include our goals in the League and FA Cups and we may be looking at even higher). And we've done that with a young side who have made mistakes that have cost us just as much as the mistakes that Martinez (who brought that side together) has made.

One very good season, one poor season (made slightly more promising by our performance in the EL).

So far, a very frustrating third season but it is far from over.

IMO, the above is no reason for a manager to go.

PS. Apologies for the long response - I know only the top half really applies to our original discussion but thought I'd sum up my argument (again like).

 

[BlueToff]

Barkleys problem last season was going away all summer with England without a proper break during his first full season of senior football - i called it before it happened.

Yeah Howard is awful i couldnt defend that one, i believe Bobert had a lot of loyalty toward Howard because he one of the "old" Moyes senior players who backed him in the dressing room when things weren't at there best last season. Not sure loyalty is a bad trait even if Howard is turbo gash.

I actually think we would be better team without Stones, terrific footballer but not what we need.

Perhaps someting Martinez doesnt get a lot of credit for is the transition of the squad from the Moyes one. When you actually look at it he has slowly chipped away in this transtition as well as the change in philosphey.

Bobbie:

Lukaku
Kone
McCarthy
Robles
Mori
Del
Besic
Cleverly
Galloway
Niasse

Moyes old guard
Jags
Ossie
Baines
Pienaar
Howard
Hibbert
Mirallas
Coleman

I think players he deserves giving a chance to are:

Stones, Oviedo and Barkley

Yep and then getting a nasty injury.

Agree on Howard and I saw the logic in having an experienced PL keeper in there when we were having to put Stones and Mori in as our two defenders due to Jags injury, with a 19-year-old Galloway at left back.

I wouldn't be so harsh on Stones. He was superb from September up until Christmas. His main issue has been a lack of confidence in the goalkeeper behind him in Howard and sometimes his knack of overplaying - although that overplaying has never really cost us apart from the penalty vs Swansea (again, a lot down to Howard). The thing against Spurs he was in total control and it was just the fans whinging and panicking - as they have done a few times this season. Why bother? It doesn't help at all and we've seen enough from the lad in his short career to know he knows what he's doing.

We're still so much slicker from the back with him in there and he is a top class defender. He also benefits hugely from having Jags next to him. At the moment though Mori deserves his game time and that's fine with me.

 

[bluewally]

I'm not discounting Merson mate, at all. It's a view and that's fine.

What I am saying is that I don't think you can compare that with Linekar in that at least Linekar has played for the club and understand's the frustrations of fans but is also pointing out that we're playing some of the best stuff we are in years.

Merson's view didn't really take that into account - rather just that this side is under-achieving (which again can't be just down to the manager and is equally as much down to the players) - and why it has been championed so much by the side of the argument that want him gone.

My point has been for the last few weeks that defensively we've looked better since the turn of the year - bar a few games.

The main change is Joel. I honestly believe that Martinez had finally got to the position where he knew that he needed to make the change, but fortunately for him he was saved making that call by an injury - so yeh we'll never know. However, since our markable up turn in form (last 5 games) we have had McCarthy back and also Jagielka fully match fit. Yes they're both liable to mistakes at times but overall we're so much better with them in.

In the end it boils down to the fact that - rightly or wrongly - RM isn't getting sacked. It's not to say your opinion isn't valid or that your points aren't correct (e.g. we all know he should have dropped Howard ages ago), but he isn't going anywhere.

Fans might as well get fully behind the team (which I can't imagine many don't do) rather than bemoan any mistake because for what it's worth the players obviously enjoy playing under Martinez and while it's been frustrating, there's still a third of the season left.

We're 11th, had one or two things gone our way at times we would be 6th, but they didn't. However, it goes to show just how close it is in the hunt for top 7. We're in the quarter final of the FA Cup and got to the semi-final in the league cup, playing some superb attacking stuff and scoring the third highest goals total in the league (include our goals in the League and FA Cups and we may be looking at even higher). And we've done that with a young side who have made mistakes that have cost us just as much as the mistakes that Martinez (who brought that side together) has made.

One very good season, one poor season (made slightly more promising by our performance in the EL).

So far, a very frustrating third season but it is far from over.

IMO, the above is no reason for a manager to go.

PS. Apologies for the long response - I know only the top half really applies to our original discussion but thought I'd sum up my argument (again like).

So we win 2 league games in a row then lose the next and that's it he's turned it around. Ok then

When you stop with the ifs buts and maybes we are still 11th

 

[BlueToff]

So we win 2 league games in a row then lose the next and that's it he's turned it around. Ok then

Where did I say that?

See this is where it gets frustrating.

I put forward a totally reasonable argument that actually agrees with half of yours, and then you come back with that response.

Four wins from the last five games, conceding once and scoring 11, is a markable up turn in form. I didn't say he's turned it around. It's certain that since the turn of the year that we have actively looked to be more defensive. Sometimes it's worked sometimes it hasn't. In four of the last five games it has.

 

[bluewally]

Where did I say that?

See this is where it gets frustrating.

I put forward a totally reasonable argument that actually agrees with half of yours, and then you come back with that response.

Four wins from the last five games, conceding once and scoring 11, is a markable up turn in form. I didn't say he's turned it around. It's certain that since the turn of the year that we have actively looked to be more defensive. Sometimes it's worked sometimes it hasn't. In four of the last five games it has.

Oh sorry I'm really only talking about the league. It's the only consistent measure of progress I feel.

And to be fair you don't really agree with me. You still feel he would have dropped them of his own volition.

And to be honest the other 2 were Carlisle and Bournemouth b team. I know you can only beat what's in front of you but If we hadn't stuffed them even Dave might have given up (but probably not)