Roberto Martinez discussion

[hullefc]

Barkleys problem last season was going away all summer with England without a proper break during his first full season of senior football - i called it before it happened.

Yeah Howard is awful i couldnt defend that one, i believe Bobert had a lot of loyalty toward Howard because he one of the "old" Moyes senior players who backed him in the dressing room when things weren't at there best last season. Not sure loyalty is a bad trait even if Howard is turbo gash.

I actually think we would be better team without Stones, terrific footballer but not what we need.

Perhaps someting Martinez doesnt get a lot of credit for is the transition of the squad from the Moyes one. When you actually look at it he has slowly chipped away in this transtition as well as the change in philosphey.

Bobbie:

Lukaku
Kone
McCarthy
Robles
Mori
Del
Besic
Cleverly
Galloway
Niasse

Moyes old guard
Jags
Ossie
Baines
Pienaar
Howard
Hibbert
Mirallas
Coleman

I think players he deserves giving a chance to are:

Stones, Oviedo and Barkley

Spot on.

 

[BlueToff]

Oh sorry I'm really only talking about the league. It's the only consistent measure of progress I feel.

And to be honest the other 2 were Carlisle and Bournemouth b team. I know you can only beat what's in front of you but If we hadn't stuffed them even Dave might have given up (but probably not)

Okay fair enough.

So the league,

we've won two of our last seven, drawing three and losing two. We've conceded seven goals in total in that run, scoring 11.

Spurs (h) 1-1
City (a) 0-0
Chelsea (a) 3-3 (did everything we could to win and officials cost us)
Swansea (h) 1-2
Newcastle (h) 3-0
Stoke (a) 3-0
WBA (h) 0-1

Total: 9 points

Not brilliant no.

However, I did a post last week where it showed that actually, it's no different to any of the teams around us, bar Chelsea (five draws and two wins I think) and Southampton.

However, there's not been one game so far in that run of seven that afterwards i've looked at and thought we actually didn't deserve anything.

Now that's not me bemoaning luck or anything, but at least I can look at the displays and feel confident that we're heading in the right direction.

Before Christmas we had a run where we were so open, but at leas now we've actively looked to add a bit more steal and the return of key players has now helped that further, along with a much needed change of keeper.

Compare it to the seven games prior to New Year.

West Ham (a) 1-1
Bournemouth (a) - 3-3
Palace (h) 1-1
Norwich (a) 1-1
Leicester (h) 2-3
Newcastle (a) 1-0
Stoke (h) 3-4

Total: 7 points

So 13 goals conceded, and 12 goals scored.

Now, to me, that highlights that we've made a markable improvement in our defending since the turn of the year... Ultimately, it's been wasted chances as much as any that has cost us in the last seven games (WBA, Swansea, even vs City away)

 

[Neiler]

Yep and then getting a nasty injury.

Agree on Howard and I saw the logic in having an experienced PL keeper in there when we were having to put Stones and Mori in as our two defenders due to Jags injury, with a 19-year-old Galloway at left back.

I wouldn't be so harsh on Stones. He was superb from September up until Christmas. His main issue has been a lack of confidence in the goalkeeper behind him in Howard and sometimes his knack of overplaying - although that overplaying has never really cost us apart from the penalty vs Swansea (again, a lot down to Howard). The thing against Spurs he was in total control and it was just the fans whinging and panicking - as they have done a few times this season. Why bother? It doesn't help at all and we've seen enough from the lad in his short career to know he knows what he's doing.

We're still so much slicker from the back with him in there and he is a top class defender. He also benefits hugely from having Jags next to him. At the moment though Mori deserves his game time and that's fine with me.

Thats an excellent point mate and one i honestly hadnt considered!

 

[BlueToff]

Thats an excellent point mate and one i honestly hadnt considered!

Cheers mate.

Not using it as a defence for RM like. Howard didn't repay that faith and should have been dropped - though I feel ultimately Joel has also benefited from having a bit less pressure on him coming in now than before Christmas when we still had Stones-Mori-Galloway/half-fit Baines available.

 

[Chang Elephant]

Agree on Howard and I saw the logic in having an experienced PL keeper in there when we were having to put Stones and Mori in as our two defenders due to Jags injury, with a 19-year-old Galloway at left back.

Yeah but we put an experienced PL clown in goal instead of a keeper, who must have caused Stones/Mori nightmares

 

[BlueToff]

Yeah but we put an experienced PL clown in goal instead of a keeper, who must have caused Stones/Mori nightmares

Oh I agree.

I saw the logic at first, but it became evidently clear very quickly that he should have changed it.

I won't defend him for that, don't think it's a sackable offence mind.

 

[Lanolin]

I'm not discounting Merson mate, at all. It's a view and that's fine.

What I am saying is that I don't think you can compare that with Linekar in that at least Linekar has played for the club and understand's the frustrations of fans but is also pointing out that we're playing some of the best stuff we are in years.

Merson's view didn't really take that into account - rather just that this side is under-achieving (which again can't be just down to the manager and is equally as much down to the players) - and why it has been championed so much by the side of the argument that want him gone.

My point has been for the last few weeks that defensively we've looked better since the turn of the year - bar a few games.

The main change is Joel. I honestly believe that Martinez had finally got to the position where he knew that he needed to make the change, but fortunately for him he was saved making that call by an injury - so yeh we'll never know. However, since our markable up turn in form (last 5 games) we have had McCarthy back and also Jagielka fully match fit. Yes they're both liable to mistakes at times but overall we're so much better with them in.

In the end it boils down to the fact that - rightly or wrongly - RM isn't getting sacked. It's not to say your opinion isn't valid or that your points aren't correct (e.g. we all know he should have dropped Howard ages ago), but he isn't going anywhere.

Fans might as well get fully behind the team (which I can't imagine many don't do) rather than bemoan any mistake because for what it's worth the players obviously enjoy playing under Martinez and while it's been frustrating, there's still a third of the season left.

We're 11th, had one or two things gone our way at times we would be 6th, but they didn't. However, it goes to show just how close it is in the hunt for top 7. We're in the quarter final of the FA Cup and got to the semi-final in the league cup, playing some superb attacking stuff and scoring the third highest goals total in the league (include our goals in the League and FA Cups and we may be looking at even higher). And we've done that with a young side who have made mistakes that have cost us just as much as the mistakes that Martinez (who brought that side together) has made.

One very good season, one poor season (made slightly more promising by our performance in the EL).

So far, a very frustrating third season but it is far from over.

IMO, the above is no reason for a manager to go.

PS. Apologies for the long response - I know only the top half really applies to our original discussion but thought I'd sum up my argument (again like).

See, this is the kind of thing I was talking about yesterday when you said you weren't aiming to be looking at things through blue tinted specs. That is exactly what you're doing though.
We're 11th, and have been around that position for over 12 months. Yes there are a few 'ifs' that might have got us higher up the table but there are also 'buts' that might have seen us lower. We've had decent cup runs, but even they were far from straightforward, and with the exception of Boro we couldn't really have complained had we been knocked out in any of the other games.
To suggest that getting to the Europa League last 16 (a stage that three English teams look set to reach tonight) was some kind of achievement is plain ridiculous. We got thoroughly embarrassed on national TV in a completely shambolic performance once we got there. It was not positive at all.
Just call a spade a spade. Trying to dress everything up as positive simply weakens your point.[/

 

[BlueToff]

See, this is the kind of thing I was talking about yesterday when you said you weren't aiming to be looking at things through blue tinted specs. That is exactly what you're doing though.
We're 11th, and have been around that position for over 12 months. Yes there are a few 'ifs' that might have got us higher up the table but there are also 'buts' that might have seen us lower. We've had decent cup runs, but even they were far from straightforward, and with the exception of Boro we couldn't really have complained had we been knocked out in any of the other games.
To suggest that getting to the Europa League last 16 (a stage that three English teams look set to reach tonight) was some kind of achievement is plain ridiculous. We got thoroughly embarrassed on national TV in a completely shambolic performance once we got there. It was not positive at all.
Just call a spade a spade. Trying to dress everything up as positive simply weakens your point.[/

And as does trying to dress everything up negatively haha?

You make a good point but don't you think we've shown enough signs this season (e.g. the form of Del, the goals of Lukaku, Barkley's emergence as an already outsanding midfielder, the impact of Besic when fit, and lately the form of Oviedo, Mori, Lennon and Joel), and especially our up turn since the turn of the year, to indicate that we can make a push for the top 7 just as easily as any of the other teams around us.

No, our cup runs have not been straightforward, but we got through them.

As for the Kiev game, it is what it is. He went there with the wrong tactics and got punished. He went to City away with completely different tactics in the semi-final (our next 'big' cup game), yet still gets slated (despite the game changing on that much-discussed ref call).

And last season we got further in Europe than any other English side. It also matched the furthest we've got in Europe (07-08) since the 80s. For a manager with no experience of managing in Europe before, I'd say we did pretty well and it was really the only positive from last season.

Are we definitely going to finish top 7? No.

Are we definitely going to finish 11th? No.

Is there a third of the season left that we are going into in some kind of form? Yes.

 

[bluewally]

Is there a third of the season left that we are going into in some kind of form? Yes.

I think this is the key point we disagree on. If you take out Bournemouth B and Carlisle I don't think our form is actually that good.

 

[Titus Bramble]

I think this is the key point we disagree on. If you take out Bournemouth B and Carlisle I don't think our form is actually that good.

Why would you take them out though?

 

[BlueToff]

Why would you take them out though?

To fit an agenda... Maybe.

Anyway, if we are talking solely about league @bluewally, then as my previous post highlighted there's been a markable improvement in our defending in the last seven games compared to the seven games before that (which were arguably 'easier' - though no PL game is ever easy - games).

We have scored one less goal and to me it seems obvious that the main issue now is getting that balance right. We got it perfect against Newcastle and Stoke and to an extent Chelsea (bar a mad two minutes when they brought it back to 2-2). Spurs in the second half and City away in the first half are also good examples.

Swansea we were terrible first half but second we were unlucky not to get something from it. Could easily have had a pen but the main blame has to go for players not getting on the end of some great crosses from Del and Coleman missing two really good chances (both of which set up by Stones who I think was a real miss against WBA as he's the player that can act as a deep lying playmaker).

 

[Lanolin]

And as does trying to dress everything up negatively haha?

You make a good point but don't you think we've shown enough signs this season (e.g. the form of Del, the goals of Lukaku, Barkley's emergence as an already outsanding midfielder, the impact of Besic when fit, and lately the form of Oviedo, Mori, Lennon and Joel), and especially our up turn since the turn of the year, to indicate that we can make a push for the top 7 just as easily as any of the other teams around us.

No, our cup runs have not been straightforward, but we got through them.

As for the Kiev game, it is what it is. He went there with the wrong tactics and got punished. He went to City away with completely different tactics in the semi-final (our next 'big' cup game), yet still gets slated (despite the game changing on that much-discussed ref call).

And last season we got further in Europe than any other English side. It also matched the furthest we've got in Europe (07-08) since the 80s. For a manager with no experience of managing in Europe before, I'd say we did pretty well and it was really the only positive from last season.

Are we definitely going to finish top 7? No.

Are we definitely going to finish 11th? No.

Is there a third of the season left that we are going into in some kind of form? Yes.

I completely agree with everything in that post.

I'm not being negative at all though, just honest. I've always said that I comment on performances as they are. I've never said we'll finish 11th or lower but that's where we are so that's what I comment on. Whether we finish 6th or 14th won't change what I see as poor performances and results for much of this season. The more we win the less i'll complain. I have already made it clear that if he wins another 6 of our remaining 12 games, and shows signs of learning from his mistakes then I will back him to start next season as manager. I can see that he has a vision for the club and I would love it to work, but there has been insufficient evidence for me that he is capable of implementing it effectively. The next 12 games can go a long way to changing my mind.

I just think putting in caveats about the EL when talking about last year smacks of an unwillingless to admit that the season was a write off. Similar to what you're saying about the City/Kiev games above. You're making out that poor Roberto can't win because he'll be criticised whatever happens, when in reality he can win - by winning. It's not our job to pick the team and tactics, it's his. When we go into these games and lose he will get criticised, and rightly so. We can all put forward ideas of what he could do, but i'm pretty sure nobody would have complained had we gone to the Etihad or Kiev and won, no matter what the tactics were. It's up to him to make that happen in future.

 

[BlueToff]

I completely agree with everything in that post.

I'm not being negative at all though, just honest. I've always said that I comment on performances as they are. I've never said we'll finish 11th or lower but that's where we are so that's what I comment on. Whether we finish 6th or 14th won't change what I see as poor performances and results for much of this season. The more we win the less i'll complain. I have already made it clear that if he wins another 6 of our remaining 12 games, and shows signs of learning from his mistakes then I will back him to start next season as manager. I can see that he has a vision for the club and I would love it to work, but there has been insufficient evidence for me that he is capable of implementing it effectively. The next 12 games can go a long way to changing my mind.

I just think putting in caveats about the EL when talking about last year smacks of an unwillingless to admit that the season was a write off. Similar to what you're saying about the City/Kiev games above. You're making out that poor Roberto can't win because he'll be criticised whatever happens, when in reality he can win - by winning. It's not our job to pick the team and tactics, it's his. When we go into these games and lose he will get criticised, and rightly so. We can all put forward ideas of what he could do, but i'm pretty sure nobody would have complained had we gone to the Etihad or Kiev and won, no matter what the tactics were. It's up to him to make that happen in future.

Agree with the top par mate. Though I would say we've put in some excellent performances this season - ultimately we haven't been always able to turn that into wins and for me that has to lie as much with the players as it does the manager.

Oh last season was a right off domestically, i've never said it wasn't. We did have a good EL campaign and that shouldn't be ignored however and when we have played some really good stuff this season, we've quite often replicated how we played throughout that campaign.

Again, I'm just not somebody who thinks that the manager should have all the responsibility and that the players should also shoulder the blame.

That's not to say RM hasn't made mistakes as he has, but ultimately the players are the ones who need to go out there and get the job done.

Without looking through blue tinted specs, I honestly think that most other fans would look at us and say we're a good side that isn't far away, but we have a knack of making silly mistakes that cost us.

Since the turn of the year I think we've started to show more of a nous in terms of cutting out those errors - and that has been helped greatly by the much-awaited and needed removal of Howard and the return of players that are key to us like McCarthy and Jagielka.

So am I overly confident we'll finish top 7? No not at all.

I do think we're more than capable of keeping up this decent run though, as frustrating a set back as the WBA defeat was.

 

[daz4matty]

To be fair he got us into the qualifying round, and very very quickly out of it with a poor showing at GP and a refereeing error in Spain. Sure, Villareal went to the semi that year.....but we didn't.
'Coco' got us to 5th didn't he?

5th so did we get into the champions league with that

 

[bluewally]

Why would you take them out though?

Because the opposition was so poor as to make them irrelevant