Roberto Martinez discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
MoutsGoat said:
http://thesefootballtimes.co/2016/0...odgers-the-flawed-disciples-of-pep-guardiola/

For some associated with the Goodison Park club, if Ahab’s monomania in Moby [Poor language removed] centres on the pursuit of a whale, then the Everton manager’s own weakness is most definitely the seemingly endless attempt at replicating Guardiola’s Barcelona model.

“Barcelona is probably the closest football club to my hometown [of Balaguer in Catalonia]. I always follow that club,” admitted Martínez in an interview with The Guardian back in 2009.

“I’ve met Pep a couple of times, he’s a very impressive man, he knows exactly what he wants and he’s worked extremely hard for it. He’s a great example not only for me but also for many chairmen to take the harder decisions.”

It’s clear that the man from Balaguer stringently follows Barça’s system. He’s obstinate in his belief of passing football’s merits and sees it as his duty to hone the technical side of players’ games. His is a style of play that gave Swansea and Wigan a crucial edge in their promotion battles and helped the latter win the FA Cup in 2013, but Martínez’s success in leading unfancied Wigan to cup glory was tempered by relegation in the very same season.

Earlier this year, the Liverpool Echo published an overview of his two-and-a-half year tenure at Everton. Martínez’s Premier League results at Wigan and Everton were juxtaposed and compared with those of Tony Pulis.

“Martínez’s tally now stands at played 254, won 70, drawn 74 and lost 101 while Pulis is played 272, won 87, drawn 79 and lost 106,” the Merseyside paper wrote.

“This equates at Martínez: won 31%, drawn 29% and lost 40% with an average of 1.22 points per game; Pulis: won 32%, drawn 29% and lost 39% with an average of 1.25 points per game.”

It’s a record that adds fuel to the fire as far as his critics are concerned. Proof, they would say, of his inability to turn style into substance and forge a successful long-term career at the top of the game.
Click to expand...


There it is in black and white again. Still some people refuse to see it
 
MoutsGoat said:
http://thesefootballtimes.co/2016/0...odgers-the-flawed-disciples-of-pep-guardiola/

For some associated with the Goodison Park club, if Ahab’s monomania in Moby [Poor language removed] centres on the pursuit of a whale, then the Everton manager’s own weakness is most definitely the seemingly endless attempt at replicating Guardiola’s Barcelona model.

“Barcelona is probably the closest football club to my hometown [of Balaguer in Catalonia]. I always follow that club,” admitted Martínez in an interview with The Guardian back in 2009.

“I’ve met Pep a couple of times, he’s a very impressive man, he knows exactly what he wants and he’s worked extremely hard for it. He’s a great example not only for me but also for many chairmen to take the harder decisions.”

It’s clear that the man from Balaguer stringently follows Barça’s system. He’s obstinate in his belief of passing football’s merits and sees it as his duty to hone the technical side of players’ games. His is a style of play that gave Swansea and Wigan a crucial edge in their promotion battles and helped the latter win the FA Cup in 2013, but Martínez’s success in leading unfancied Wigan to cup glory was tempered by relegation in the very same season.

Earlier this year, the Liverpool Echo published an overview of his two-and-a-half year tenure at Everton. Martínez’s Premier League results at Wigan and Everton were juxtaposed and compared with those of Tony Pulis.

“Martínez’s tally now stands at played 254, won 70, drawn 74 and lost 101 while Pulis is played 272, won 87, drawn 79 and lost 106,” the Merseyside paper wrote.

“This equates at Martínez: won 31%, drawn 29% and lost 40% with an average of 1.22 points per game; Pulis: won 32%, drawn 29% and lost 39% with an average of 1.25 points per game.”

It’s a record that adds fuel to the fire as far as his critics are concerned. Proof, they would say, of his inability to turn style into substance and forge a successful long-term career at the top of the game.
Click to expand...
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha.

"What the Echo did was to take Martinez's seasons at Wigan and Everton and add them together and multiply them by this and that and then compare it to Pulis's points total over 2,500 games and halved that total and divided by 4 to prove that Martinez is rubbish" - These football times.

FFS.

Step away from the keyboard will yer.
 
Saint Domingo said:
But what abar dem last 5 games and der joint cup record?
Click to expand...

There's this false idea that RM has never changed his style though.

Last season we got bogged down with that possession system too much in a lot of league games and it didn't work.

No surprise when we changed it and became more counter-attacking that we started to see better results.

Strangely enough, in Europe, we played with that counter-attacking style all along and benefited from it greatly up until that Kiev second-leg (where it is really one of the few times that RM has got a selection wrong in that he went too attacking from the start).

Now, look at our away form and style this season and compare it to what we did in some of the European games (both home and away) last term. It's near-enough bang on identical, and it shows that RM has learned from last season that we can comfortably beat teams using that way of playing. So there, he has learnt that lesson and he often references Europe last season as the major benefit and it's for that reason.

Ultimately, that style does require a team to come out at us and require us to be strong defensively, so we can then exploit the gaps on the counter. On the road we haven't seemed to find it an issue, and that's probably because there is less pressure for us to come out and attack a team from the off.

It hasn't worked this season at home (obviously), bar the first leg of the league cup vs Man City, and the game against Chelsea in September, and the game vs Sunderland where we hit them on the counter as soon as they got up a head of steam from their equaliser.

I won't count Villa and N'Castle as they were both dreadful and we played around them mostly.

Now, it's plain to me that this system works against teams that come to play at Goodison (e.g. Leicester, Stoke as two examples.) The main issue, for us, in those instances, we failed to score first and so constantly ended up chasing the game. Vs Leicester we conceded two stupid penalties and against Stoke we sat back too deep and they were in great form in fairness to them.

It also requires some semblance of authority and composure from our keeper, which has been sorely lacking in a lot of the instances that Howard has been in net.

It's also partially down to the pressure of the Goodison support as well. Not in a bad way, I might add, but I do think it's a factor.

At home, fans want us to be on the front foot from the off, which is perfectly understandable. However, a lot of teams at Goodison now come to sit deep and do us on the counter (the likes of Swansea, WBA, Watford etc have done this). Vs. Swansea, we sat deep in an attempt to lure them out and open up some gaps for Mirallas and Del. However, the pressure from the crowd meant that we kind of got stuck in between the two, and that is a fault in the players' mentality that they didn't stick to their tactics.

Then, a Stones mistake combined with Howard being Howard, resulted in them taking the lead. We then have to chase the game and even though we equalised, we were playing right into Swansea's hands in that first half. Second half we changed tact to having to dominate possession but couldn't get over the line despite creating loads of chances.

Vs WBA, we went strong from the off and they grabbed their goal due to a mistake from Coleman in conceding the corner trying to let the ball run out of play, and McCarthy and Lukaku both switching off at the back post. Mori could also have done better to win the initial header.

From then on in, how we didn't score will remain 'one of them things'.

Now, I'm actually going into tomorrow's game with a bit of confidence. Not because of how well we played (as we didn't, particularly) vs Villa, but because W.Ham have got a lot of players injured in defence. The likelihood is they'll be starting Kouyate at right back with Oxford next to Ogbonna in the middle. If not, they may go with Antonio at right back with Kouyate and Ogbonna in the middle.

That means that they are going to know that we are capable (and actually, more likely than Spurs) of breaking them down. It's alright coming here if you've got a team of defenders like Pulis, but when you've got half of your defence out it's a different matter all together.

That leads me to believe, and with the form their in I think it's likely, that they may come out and attack us early on.

Our defence is on the whole, looking much better due to the form of players like Oviedo (fingers crossed he's fit), Mori and Joel. It's a big if, but I'm a lot more confident of being able to hold them at bay than I would have been if we had played this fixture two months ago.

That isn't to say we shouldn't look to get on the front foot and solely play on the counter. We need to press and attack them and get at their defence. But our main opportunities - like Barca vs Arsenal - will come from drawing them out of their shape and hitting them on the break.
 
May I also add my apologies for the essay, but I believe that's a pretty sound and well-reasoned post that shows that this idea that RM is unable to change his style is utter nonsense.
 
BlueToff said:
There's this false idea that RM has never changed his style though.

Last season we got bogged down with that possession system too much in a lot of league games and it didn't work.

No surprise when we changed it and became more counter-attacking that we started to see better results.

Strangely enough, in Europe, we played with that counter-attacking style all along and benefited from it greatly up until that Kiev second-leg (where it is really one of the few times that RM has got a selection wrong in that he went too attacking from the start).

Now, look at our away form and style this season and compare it to what we did in some of the European games (both home and away) last term. It's near-enough bang on identical, and it shows that RM has learned from last season that we can comfortably beat teams using that way of playing. So there, he has learnt that lesson and he often references Europe last season as the major benefit and it's for that reason.

Ultimately, that style does require a team to come out at us and require us to be strong defensively, so we can then exploit the gaps on the counter. On the road we haven't seemed to find it an issue, and that's probably because there is less pressure for us to come out and attack a team from the off.

It hasn't worked this season at home (obviously), bar the first leg of the league cup vs Man City, and the game against Chelsea in September, and the game vs Sunderland where we hit them on the counter as soon as they got up a head of steam from their equaliser.

I won't count Villa and N'Castle as they were both dreadful and we played around them mostly.

Now, it's plain to me that this system works against teams that come to play at Goodison (e.g. Leicester, Stoke as two examples.) The main issue, for us, in those instances, we failed to score first and so constantly ended up chasing the game. Vs Leicester we conceded two stupid penalties and against Stoke we sat back too deep and they were in great form in fairness to them.

It also requires some semblance of authority and composure from our keeper, which has been sorely lacking in a lot of the instances that Howard has been in net.

It's also partially down to the pressure of the Goodison support as well. Not in a bad way, I might add, but I do think it's a factor.

At home, fans want us to be on the front foot from the off, which is perfectly understandable. However, a lot of teams at Goodison now come to sit deep and do us on the counter (the likes of Swansea, WBA, Watford etc have done this). Vs. Swansea, we sat deep in an attempt to lure them out and open up some gaps for Mirallas and Del. However, the pressure from the crowd meant that we kind of got stuck in between the two, and that is a fault in the players' mentality that they didn't stick to their tactics.

Then, a Stones mistake combined with Howard being Howard, resulted in them taking the lead. We then have to chase the game and even though we equalised, we were playing right into Swansea's hands in that first half. Second half we changed tact to having to dominate possession but couldn't get over the line despite creating loads of chances.

Vs WBA, we went strong from the off and they grabbed their goal due to a mistake from Coleman in conceding the corner trying to let the ball run out of play, and McCarthy and Lukaku both switching off at the back post. Mori could also have done better to win the initial header.

From then on in, how we didn't score will remain 'one of them things'.

Now, I'm actually going into tomorrow's game with a bit of confidence. Not because of how well we played (as we didn't, particularly) vs Villa, but because W.Ham have got a lot of players injured in defence. The likelihood is they'll be starting Kouyate at right back with Oxford next to Ogbonna in the middle. If not, they may go with Antonio at right back with Kouyate and Ogbonna in the middle.

That means that they are going to know that we are capable (and actually, more likely than Spurs) of breaking them down. It's alright coming here if you've got a team of defenders like Pulis, but when you've got half of your defence out it's a different matter all together.

That leads me to believe, and with the form their in I think it's likely, that they may come out and attack us early on.

Our defence is on the whole, looking much better due to the form of players like Oviedo (fingers crossed he's fit), Mori and Joel. It's a big if, but I'm a lot more confident of being able to hold them at bay than I would have been if we had played this fixture two months ago.

That isn't to say we shouldn't look to get on the front foot and solely play on the counter. We need to press and attack them and get at their defence. But our main opportunities - like Barca vs Arsenal - will come from drawing them out of their shape and hitting them on the break.
Click to expand...
Great post mate. Forensic analysis of what's been worked on and needs no improvement.

For me, the home form (as well as the need for more commanding GK performances and crowd support that you identify) when teams come just to sit underlines again that we haven't got a) that lock picker we've required for some time (Deulofeu can do a fine job on the right flank, but centrally we're lacking) and b ) our lack of a 'Giroud' type of more bustling striker who we can go to for a plan B.

In the summer we need those two players addressing if we're to avoid home game disappointment.
 

davek said:
Great post mate. Forensic analysis of what's been worked on and needs no improvement.

For me, the home form (as well as the need for more commanding GK performances and crowd support that you identify) when teams come just to sit underlines again that we haven't got a) that lock picker we've required for some time (Deulofeu can do a fine job on the right flank, but centrally we're lacking) and b ) our lack of a 'Giroud' type of more bustling striker who we can go to for a plan B.

In the summer we need those two players addressing if we're to avoid home game disappointment.
Click to expand...

Agree mate.

The home form obviously is an issue, I think everybody who defends RM admits as much, but I don't see it as being a sackable offence.

If we were playing some of the torrid, sideways stuff at home that I saw last year, I'd think differently. But we don't. The key however, is not conceding first. I think that's pretty obvious.

If we get ourselves into a position where the oppo have no choice but to come out at us, we have the players who can exploit the gaps.

And yes, in the summer, if we target a player that is capable of picking out that pass (which also takes the strain off of Barkley and Del - who are often doubled up on) then that's going to help ten-fold in giving us a much better chance to win those games. Those players are the ones (after strikers) that cost big money. We were already shopping in the £20mil ball-park, but now we have the capability of paying that bit extra to make the deals happen.

I agree on the forward as well although, for what it's worth, think we should have a proper look at Niasse first. He's not your traditional target man, but does look like one of those players that puts himself about and hassles and harries the opposition.
 
blulouie said:
Yep....strange league , 4 points off 7th with a game in hand.
Click to expand...

Wow our expectations are being lowered on a weekly basis now. We used to get quoted the fact that we were only x points off 5th. Now we're 4 points off 7th and some people are happy with that.
 
BlueToff said:
Agree mate.

The home form obviously is an issue, I think everybody who defends RM admits as much, but I don't see it as being a sackable offence.

If we were playing some of the torrid, sideways stuff at home that I saw last year, I'd think differently. But we don't. The key however, is not conceding first. I think that's pretty obvious.

If we get ourselves into a position where the oppo have no choice but to come out at us, we have the players who can exploit the gaps.

And yes, in the summer, if we target a player that is capable of picking out that pass (which also takes the strain off of Barkley and Del - who are often doubled up on) then that's going to help ten-fold in giving us a much better chance to win those games. Those players are the ones (after strikers) that cost big money. We were already shopping in the £20mil ball-park, but now we have the capability of paying that bit extra to make the deals happen.

I agree on the forward as well although, for what it's worth, think we should have a proper look at Niasse first. He's not your traditional target man, but does look like one of those players that puts himself about and hassles and harries the opposition.
Click to expand...
True enough about Niasse. Until he's assessed then we don't really know if he can be the answer for us with respect to that other striker (I suspect not, though, from what I know of him - looks to be more a type that joins in attacks from out wide than a target man).
 
davek said:
True enough about Niasse. Until he's assessed then we don't really know if he can be the answer for us with respect to that other striker (I suspect not, though, from what I know of him - looks to be more a type that joins in attacks from out wide than a target man).
Click to expand...

Yup you've gotta be a pretty good striker to play in this league
 

bluewally said:
Wow our expectations are being lowered on a weekly basis now. We used to get quoted the fact that we were only x points off 5th. Now we're 4 points off 7th and some people are happy with that.
Click to expand...
That suggests 5th was ever good enough. It wasn't.

We've competed very well across three competitions and scored 69 goals.

This is called 'progress'.
 
bluewally said:
Wow our expectations are being lowered on a weekly basis now. We used to get quoted the fact that we were only x points off 5th. Now we're 4 points off 7th and some people are happy with that.
Click to expand...

No I don't think anyone is happy mate.

The fact is that we can't control what other teams around us do until we play them. We're 8 points off 6th-placed W.Ham at the moment but if we beat them then the outlook looks a lot different.

It's all ifs and buts and it's why this stage of the season is so crucial now.

They're not must wins to save RM his job, but we've got four games coming up against teams that are 'around us' in the table. I'm counting W.Ham as I don't think their place in the top six is secured just yet. Massive few weeks for us and we need to get the results.

If we don't then yes, the season may be null and void (depending on the FA Cup, obviously), but again I don't think it would warrant a sacking. It would, rightly so, however, increase the pressure on RM to get us off to a good start next season - or at least get the right balance.

Based on the fact that our attacking play has improved so much this season compared to last season, and now finally our defending looks to be following suit, I think he gets more time.
 
BlueToff said:
I won't count Villa and N'Castle as they were both dreadful and we played around them mostly.
Click to expand...

If you're not going to count Villa and Newcastle, and I agree with your reasons for that, it means that since 28th September when we beat west Brom 3-2 we have won 1 away league game vs stoke.

Hardly the scintillating away form you and Dave keep going on about
 
bluewally said:
If you're not going to count Villa and Newcastle, and I agree with your reasons for that, it means that since 28th September when we beat west Brom 3-2 we have won 1 away league game vs stoke.

Hardly the scintillating away form you and Dave keep going on about
Click to expand...

I was talking about our home fixtures...

Away is a completely different kettle of fish.

We have approached all of our away fixtures this season in a similar matter, and got good results.

A few slip ups (Norwich and Bournemouth) and one where we were cost three massive points and a double over Chelsea by the officials :)
 

Status
Not open for further replies.

Welcome to GrandOldTeam

Get involved. Registration is simple and free.

Register
Back
Top