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Roberto Martinez discussion

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I don't see the signs. We've conceded less recently but you have to consider the standard of the opposition too.

We have 9 wins this season in the league. 1 has come against a team above us in the league. 5 of those are villa, Sunderland, Newcastle.

We have played 9 teams in cups. 6 were from lower divisions, Bournemouth played a second string side, we beat Norwich on pens, and lost to city.

Where's the improvement?
 
No it's not embarrassing.

I'd personally say bottling it like we did against Liverpool is worse than losing in Kiev.

You plotters are all well and good thinking that your opinions count for anything and that he will be sacked, but he isn't going anywhere any time soon so what's the point?

That's not trying to ridicule you or say RM is infallible - he obviously has his faults - it's just this completely unfounded argument that he hasn't changed his style to try and win games. He quite clearly has. Sometimes it's worked and sometimes it hasn't.


your entire defense of him is that he's not going anywhere so whats the point
 
I'll tell you what I said about it: 7th placed trophy = not good enough; bottling a SF to Liverpool = not good enough.

As a season = very acceptable.

"We also played decent football in that season with Moyes and crucially it was a pretty enjoyable experience going to home games."

Says it all really doesn't it? We played decent football that one season out of the 11 he was here for (and certainly not all the time that season either).

Let's not rewrite history here.

We played some very decent football between 06-10 when we had Arteta at his peak bossing the midfield. Admittedly we were grim before that, but that's because we had a set of players that weren't exactly capable of playing liquid football. Our budget meant we had a very average-lower PL squad, Moyes had to get what he could out of those players and to be fair, he did
 
It is a shame, of course it is - but tell me why you insist for wholly blaming RM?

It's as much down to the players as it is him... just as the good things we do are as well.
Because it's his job and he has a very talented group of players. We have players to be in a lot better position than 11th.
 
I don't see the signs. We've conceded less recently but you have to consider the standard of the opposition too.

We have 9 wins this season in the league. 1 has come against a team above us in the league. 5 of those are villa, Sunderland, Newcastle.

We have played 9 teams in cups. 6 were from lower divisions, Bournemouth played a second string side, we beat Norwich on pens, and lost to city.

Where's the improvement?

69 goals in all competitions so far compared to 72 in total last season?

Our away record.

An all-round improvement in our attacking play and the re-emergence of the likes of Barkley, Del, Rom and Mori. Lennon's form since coming into the side, the form of Barry, Oviedo and Joel.

Plenty of positives if you're willing to see them and not constantly look to bemoan.

The results should have been and should be better. Yes, and especially at home.

But there have been clear signs of improvement and now finally signs of improvement in the defence.

He isn't going anywhere soon so rather than concentrate on that thought why not just stick with it and see where it goes.

If we end up where we are now with no cup then in the summer he will be under a bit more pressure but he will get at least the start of next season.

It's so much better to just accept that rather than seeing the negatives (of which there are plenty I know - but not just down to Martinez). It's called the law of attraction, mate... it's worth a go ;)
 

Because it's his job and he has a very talented group of players. We have players to be in a lot better position than 11th.

A very talented group of players that missed over 30 chances vs West Brom at home, loads against Norwich, loads against Palace etc etc which would have put those games well out of sight...

The manager can only do so much mate. The players are as much to blame as he is.
 
We played some very decent football between 06-10 when we had Arteta at his peak bossing the midfield. Admittedly we were grim before that, but that's because we had a set of players that weren't exactly capable of playing liquid football. Our budget meant we had a very average-lower PL squad, Moyes had to get what he could out of those players and to be fair, he did
It wasn't down to spending little (Everton's problem then was not so much paying little for players but having little net spend). The problem was we had a negative, don't lose-at-all-costs manager who served up muck for the majority of the time he was here - only made bearable by a Pienaar-Baines combination that alleviated us all from the dross consistently served up.
 
69 goals in all competitions so far compared to 72 in total last season?

Our away record.

An all-round improvement in our attacking play and the re-emergence of the likes of Barkley, Del, Rom and Mori. Lennon's form since coming into the side, the form of Barry, Oviedo and Joel.

Plenty of positives if you're willing to see them and not constantly look to bemoan.

The results should have been and should be better. Yes, and especially at home.

But there have been clear signs of improvement and now finally signs of improvement in the defence.

He isn't going anywhere soon so rather than concentrate on that thought why not just stick with it and see where it goes.

If we end up where we are now with no cup then in the summer he will be under a bit more pressure but he will get at least the start of next season.

It's so much better to just accept that rather than seeing the negatives (of which there are plenty I know - but not just down to Martinez). It's called the law of attraction, mate... it's worth a go ;)

How about trying to see past the positives. I know its tough because you have to dig so hard to find them.

I think I'll wait until we play a decent team before I decide our defence has improved.

I've never denied he's got an eye for a player but that's the extent of his ability. Super head scout maybe
 

A very talented group of players that missed over 30 chances vs West Brom at home, loads against Norwich, loads against Palace etc etc which would have put those games well out of sight...

The manager can only do so much mate. The players are as much to blame as he is.
They didn't have 30 chances against West Brom. Coleman cut in and blasted a shot against the first man about 4 times, that isn't a chance. I don't remember us carving them open time after time and Lukaku missing open goals.
 
We have had a favourable run of fixtures there is no doubt - however you can only beat the team in front of you.

Lets see the signs of progress over the next 6 games. See before these wins people where pointing to all sorts of things in defence - goals scored, 72 points etc etc etc without taking a full view and was tit for tat.

We have won a few games which is great but the opposition isn't exactly top of the league. Lets see how we get on over the next few games to see what sign of progress there is if any.

Howard was injured and hasn't been given his place back - that in itself is progress (please don't start saying it was always going to happen, howard came back into the team last year when he shouldn't have). My personal opinion as i have stated plenty of times on this thread is that Martinez has lucked out a little with the defensive improvement, i didn't see much sign of him changing things.

But... lets see how we get on in the next lot of games. beating teams of a bit more quality will be the sign of improvement for me.
 
It wasn't down to spending little (Everton's problem then was not so much paying little for players but having little net spend). The problem was we had a negative, don't lose-at-all-costs manager who served up muck for the majority of the time he was here - only made bearable by a Pienaar-Baines combination that alleviated us all from the dross consistently served up.

I think if we had a Martinez in charge between 03-05, trying to play like Barcelona with Alan Stubbs and Kevin Kilbane in the team, we'd have been relegated without so much as a whimper
 
Don't forget the unplayable style of football that most teams can actually play against

Not when we get it right.

I've not said that we have been unplayable in every game, have I...

At times, we have been outstanding this season. As Merson, who all you plotters used as your spearhead a few weeks ago, said himself when he watched us hammer Stoke...

At times, we've been excellent. Best stuff I've seen us play as I was never lucky enough to see the team of the 80s. For that reason I'm willing to give him more time to get this right - whether that is taking us to success himself or setting in place the system that another manager eventually will build on...
 
There's this false idea that RM has never changed his style though.

Last season we got bogged down with that possession system too much in a lot of league games and it didn't work.

No surprise when we changed it and became more counter-attacking that we started to see better results.

Strangely enough, in Europe, we played with that counter-attacking style all along and benefited from it greatly up until that Kiev second-leg (where it is really one of the few times that RM has got a selection wrong in that he went too attacking from the start).

Now, look at our away form and style this season and compare it to what we did in some of the European games (both home and away) last term. It's near-enough bang on identical, and it shows that RM has learned from last season that we can comfortably beat teams using that way of playing. So there, he has learnt that lesson and he often references Europe last season as the major benefit and it's for that reason.

Ultimately, that style does require a team to come out at us and require us to be strong defensively, so we can then exploit the gaps on the counter. On the road we haven't seemed to find it an issue, and that's probably because there is less pressure for us to come out and attack a team from the off.

It hasn't worked this season at home (obviously), bar the first leg of the league cup vs Man City, and the game against Chelsea in September, and the game vs Sunderland where we hit them on the counter as soon as they got up a head of steam from their equaliser.

I won't count Villa and N'Castle as they were both dreadful and we played around them mostly.

Now, it's plain to me that this system works against teams that come to play at Goodison (e.g. Leicester, Stoke as two examples.) The main issue, for us, in those instances, we failed to score first and so constantly ended up chasing the game. Vs Leicester we conceded two stupid penalties and against Stoke we sat back too deep and they were in great form in fairness to them.

It also requires some semblance of authority and composure from our keeper, which has been sorely lacking in a lot of the instances that Howard has been in net.

It's also partially down to the pressure of the Goodison support as well. Not in a bad way, I might add, but I do think it's a factor.

At home, fans want us to be on the front foot from the off, which is perfectly understandable. However, a lot of teams at Goodison now come to sit deep and do us on the counter (the likes of Swansea, WBA, Watford etc have done this). Vs. Swansea, we sat deep in an attempt to lure them out and open up some gaps for Mirallas and Del. However, the pressure from the crowd meant that we kind of got stuck in between the two, and that is a fault in the players' mentality that they didn't stick to their tactics.

Then, a Stones mistake combined with Howard being Howard, resulted in them taking the lead. We then have to chase the game and even though we equalised, we were playing right into Swansea's hands in that first half. Second half we changed tact to having to dominate possession but couldn't get over the line despite creating loads of chances.

Vs WBA, we went strong from the off and they grabbed their goal due to a mistake from Coleman in conceding the corner trying to let the ball run out of play, and McCarthy and Lukaku both switching off at the back post. Mori could also have done better to win the initial header.

From then on in, how we didn't score will remain 'one of them things'.

Now, I'm actually going into tomorrow's game with a bit of confidence. Not because of how well we played (as we didn't, particularly) vs Villa, but because W.Ham have got a lot of players injured in defence. The likelihood is they'll be starting Kouyate at right back with Oxford next to Ogbonna in the middle. If not, they may go with Antonio at right back with Kouyate and Ogbonna in the middle.

That means that they are going to know that we are capable (and actually, more likely than Spurs) of breaking them down. It's alright coming here if you've got a team of defenders like Pulis, but when you've got half of your defence out it's a different matter all together.

That leads me to believe, and with the form their in I think it's likely, that they may come out and attack us early on.

Our defence is on the whole, looking much better due to the form of players like Oviedo (fingers crossed he's fit), Mori and Joel. It's a big if, but I'm a lot more confident of being able to hold them at bay than I would have been if we had played this fixture two months ago.

That isn't to say we shouldn't look to get on the front foot and solely play on the counter. We need to press and attack them and get at their defence. But our main opportunities - like Barca vs Arsenal - will come from drawing them out of their shape and hitting them on the break.

I actually agree with you. There are signs things are getting better. I've never said that there's no difference (hence the jovial nature of my post you quoted). Europa league qualification and a consistency in style from now to the end of the season and I'm a happy bunny. If we step backwards now in terms of selection (Howard, Kone) or fail to crack a style for playing at home, then for me questions remain. It is unquestionably better than last season though. Only a fool wouldn't admit that. 11th isn't good enough though and only a fool wouldn't admit that. If we're both right then we will be moving up the table in the right direction I the coming weeks and will both be happy.
 

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