Roberto Martinez discussion

[deipnosophist]

A front line of Arouna, Naisy and Jela would be quite something. I suggest would be out in force!! lol

 

[Saint Domingo]

I think we paid a fee for Robles mate.

Both McGeady and Alcaraz would have had signing on fees too, but point taken.

Can't complain about the fees for Jelavic and Anichebe? Blinding piece of business from Martinez...

He'll bring a striker in.

I hope so and it will be interesting to see what type of quality we can get in and whether the board will release a decent amount of funds for one. The fees for Jelavic and Anichebe were good, it was just negated by the fee for Kone. Would just rather have kept Jelavic for the same money.

 

[marty mcfly]

For one of them yes. But we sold Jelavic for 6 mill and bought a worse striker for 6 mill. I'd rather have kept him as he wasn't good enough for first choice but would be a lot more of a threat than Kone.

Kone has been an awful signing. However all managers make them. At the time we were windmilling at the thought of getting 6 mil for Jelavic.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

I hope so and it will be interesting to see what type of quality we can get in and whether the board will release a decent amount of funds for one. The fees for Jelavic and Anichebe were good, it was just negated by the fee for Kone. Would just rather have kept Jelavic for the same money.

We got £6m for Anichebe.
I think £7.5m for Jelavic.

I'd have sold both for those fees even if both was the only two lads in the squad who can play up front.

 

[marty mcfly]

The million dollar question though Dave, is it's personnel not tactics that is the key why not go and get the personnel. We both know it's because we don't have the funds to do so. So the question is, objectively speaking if he is not going to be able to get the right personnel to make the system he wants to play successful do we need to adapt somewhat?

I have to say I disagree on the whole. I don't think it's the "systems" fault. Last season we played a variety of ways. Liverpool at home was like back to the Dogs of war era. I think Martinez's biggest weakness is his overconfidence. He is a very positive person but sometimes that can fly in the face if any realism. He is a bit of a dreamer. Starting this season thinking that Osman and Peinaar will be sufficient for number 10's as I know he does is the stuff of fantasy.

I hope he does well this season. I can see what he is trying to do. He is moulding a set of young players below the first team who will be ready in the future to take us to the next level. But he needs time to blood them. He also needs the breathing space of not having a baying crowd and the pressure of 6 pointer bottom half matches to blood them into.

What's most impressive is he is looking to bring through not just star players, but also solid squad men. I have little doubt he will achieve this if he's given time. The worry I have with Martinez is never his tactics or grand strategy, he is very erudite and intelligent but rather the short term nitty gritty that is needed to get to that grand vision.

Starting last season that way was the stuff of fantasy. Starting this season would be delusional.

 

[marty mcfly]

I didn't claim it to be. He is saving us time by cutting to the chase in dragging this club kicking and screaming back into the fold of football that works the ball and emphasises combination - which is our birthright and something eschewed by the Moyes period in particular.

We lost our way from what we are as a football club and Martinez needs time to get us back on track. He's defo changed the culture of the players and most fans. Of course there's always the heretics who'll yearn for the agricultural ways of Moyes...probably because they've known no better.

Moyes wasn't a long ball merchant. He was a pragmatists in much the same way as Mourinho is. In fact if Mourinho managed Everton it would be very similar to how Moyes did. Even Jose isn't against the idea of sticking a CB in midfield the odd time either. Anyway he's the past so what does it matter.

 

[davek]

The million dollar question though Dave, is it's personnel not tactics that is the key why not go and get the personnel. We both know it's because we don't have the funds to do so. So the question is, objectively speaking if he is not going to be able to get the right personnel to make the system he wants to play successful do we need to adapt somewhat?

I have to say I disagree on the whole. I don't think it's the "systems" fault. Last season we played a variety of ways. Liverpool at home was like back to the Dogs of war era. I think Martinez's biggest weakness is his overconfidence. He is a very positive person but sometimes that can fly in the face if any realism. He is a bit of a dreamer. Starting this season thinking that Osman and Peinaar will be sufficient for number 10's as I know he does is the stuff of fantasy.

I hope he does well this season. I can see what he is trying to do. He is moulding a set of young players below the first team who will be ready in the future to take us to the next level. But he needs time to blood them. He also needs the breathing space of not having a baying crowd and the pressure of 6 pointer bottom half matches to blood them into.

What's most impressive is he is looking to bring through not just star players, but also solid squad men. I have little doubt he will achieve this if he's given time. The worry I have with Martinez is never his tactics or grand strategy, he is very erudite and intelligent but rather the short term nitty gritty that is needed to get to that grand vision.

I dont think pragmatism and Martinez go together, tbh. I admire that for the most part. It's also a necessity for him to stick playing a certain system come what may because his whole pitch to the players he manages is that you dont stop trying to play and look for the easy way out when under pressure - which can lead to a lot of mistakes - but for him, if he failed to tolerate those mistakes, the jig would be up in terms of the control he has over his players. What would they do if they saw a manger espousing the credo of passing and finding space and retaining the ball suddenly order a more direct approach? If it were me I'd find it difficult taking him seriously again. So even if the personnel aren't in place we're going to get a brand of football that we've had for the last two seasons: building from the back and getting ourselves up the pitch in numbers to make things try and happen. The question is whether that would look like the first season or second - and that depends on the tempo we'd play at. Working the ball sideways can be fruitful but only if the pace of the pass and sharpness of players' movement to be there for it are a feature of our play; if not, it'll look like last season and we'll trouble not too many teams.

New personnel matters then, but so too does energy levels. We'll need them both to make an impact this season. If we dont get them in sufficient measure we'll still be more than ok, but it'll be more of the grind of season two.

 

[marty mcfly]

I dont think pragmatism and Martinez go together, tbh. I admire that for the most part. It's also a necessity for him to stick playing a certain system come what may because his whole pitch to the players he manages is that you dont stop trying to play and look for the easy way out when under pressure - which can lead to a lot of mistakes - but for him, if he failed to tolerate those mistakes, the jig would be up in terms of the control he has over his players. What would they do if they saw a manger espousing the credo of passing and finding space and retaining the ball suddenly order a more direct approach? If it were me I'd find it difficult taking him seriously again. So even if the personnel aren't in place we're going to get a brand of football that we've had for the last two seasons: building from the back and getting ourselves up the pitch in numbers to make things try and happen. The question is whether that would look like the first season or second - and that depends on the tempo we'd play at. Working the ball sideways can be fruitful but only if the pace of the pass and sharpness of players' movement to be there for it are a feature of our play; if not, it'll look like last season and we'll trouble not too many teams.

New personnel matters then, but so too does energy levels. We'll need them both to make an impact this season. If we dont get them in sufficient measure we'll still be more than ok, but it'll be more of the grind of season two.

It's not one or the other. Barcelona still play possession football but now with a front 3 that are bit more direct they tend to get it up to them faster and it works.

The problem with Martinez is that he won't play two wingers. When he doesn't park the buss with a diamond he insists on this formation that relies on one playmaker on the left side and a winger on the other side. If he played a proper 4-3-3 he would get more out of this team. Deulofeu, Mirallas and Lukaku would be far more direct and create loads of chances. We should be copying how Barcelona circa 2015 play not Barcelona circa 2009.

Saying that doesn't make you a plotter or a Moyes fanboy. It's just common sense and if he continues to keep it up he'll wear what little patience we have left.

 

[rochdaleblue]

No, he hasn't always been awful. Look up some of his stuff on Youtube. Maybe not a top striker, but a decent one with an all-round game, which is what we paid for. But the injury finished him before any of that mattered. Not sure how Martinez comes out of this as the bad guy. The fact he played so little in pre-season suggests to me that even Martinez knows he's finished; it's just a case of finding a replacement....

You don't know how Martinez comes out of this as the bad guy. The vast majority had serious concerns about paying 6m for a striker many deemed not good enough for EFC. This was before his injury. I'm sorry I blame the manager fully for it as he signed him, likewise I'll praise him for acquiring James McCarthy.

 

[davek]

It's not one or the other. Barcelona still play possession football but now with a front 3 that are bit more direct they tend to get it up to them faster and it works.

The problem with Martinez is that he won't play two wingers. When he doesn't park the buss with a diamond he insists on this formation that relies on one playmaker on the left side and a winger on the other side. If he played a proper 4-3-3 he would get more out of this team. Deulofeu, Mirallas and Lukaku would be far more direct and create loads of chances. We should be copying how Barcelona circa 2015 play not Barcelona circa 2009.

Saying that doesn't make you a plotter or a Moyes fanboy. It's just common sense and if he continues to keep it up he'll wear what little patience we have left.

He had that in season one in games we played off a team coming on to us. Play that at home against Palace or Stoke or etc etc and it'd fall on its arse.

 

[quasi modo]

It's not one or the other. Barcelona still play possession football but now with a front 3 that are bit more direct they tend to get it up to them faster and it works.

The problem with Martinez is that he won't play two wingers. When he doesn't park the buss with a diamond he insists on this formation that relies on one playmaker on the left side and a winger on the other side. If he played a proper 4-3-3 he would get more out of this team. Deulofeu, Mirallas and Lukaku would be far more direct and create loads of chances. We should be copying how Barcelona circa 2015 play not Barcelona circa 2009.

Saying that doesn't make you a plotter or a Moyes fanboy. It's just common sense and if he continues to keep it up he'll wear what little patience we have left.

Plus the fact Barcelona have players of a greater ability.

 

[marty mcfly]

He had that in season one in games we played off a team coming on to us. Play that at home against Palace or Stoke or etc etc and it'd fall on its arse.

He never played it unless we were looking for an equalizer and he didn't play it in pre-season either before Deulofeu's injury.

There's absolutely no reason to think it would fall on it's arse. It's a 4-3-3 the most popular formation in modern football not some untried new way of playing.

When Utd won the league with Tevez, Rooney and Ronaldo which one of them was the "playmaker"? None of them. They're all direct players who will also create for each other the same way Deulofeu, Mirallas and Rom get a decent amount of assists each season.

 

[Saint Domingo]

He had that in season one in games we played off a team coming on to us. Play that at home against Palace or Stoke or etc etc and it'd fall on its arse.

What Martinez did so well in his first season was using subs to win a game. He'd bring Pienaar Osman or even Naismith off the bench against those teams that parked the bus and a 0-0 was suddenly a 2-0 win (Villa away and home prime examples of gaining points this way). We didn't have that last season maybe due to injuries. Then again though Martinez can't rely on Pienaar Osman or Gibson staying fit, he needs to identify creative replacements so we can play both on the break and on the front foot.

 

[marty mcfly]

Plus the fact Barcelona have players of a greater ability.

Which is more of a reason to play the way Barca play today not some extreme ideologically driven Guardiola style that relies on one of the best players to have ever played to work.

 

[Saint Domingo]

He never played it unless we were looking for an equalizer and he didn't play it in pre-season either before Deulofeu's injury.

There's absolutely no reason to think it would fall on it's arse. It's a 4-3-3 the most popular formation in modern football not some untried new way of playing.

When Utd won the league with Tevez, Rooney and Ronaldo which one of them was the "playmaker"? None of them. They're all direct players who will also create for each other the same way Deulofeu, Mirallas and Rom get a decent amount of assists each season.

They had Scholes and Carrick threading through balls everywhere to a ridiculous front three. All of that was based on the best back 5 in the league. I don't think we have the midfield or defence to play in a manner where Deulofeu or Mirallas can just focus on attacking.