Roberto Martinez Shenanigans: All Reaction Here

[Jags..class]

And it is for those reasons that I would have no problems with Neil Lennon coming.

So you want a manager who is Narky, Moyes was no soft-touch, he just had respect for refs who do a hard job, the refs are not the problems. Its the players who roll over and cheat which makes the ref job so much harder.

 

[blueblue]

The last time I saw Duffy play was in the pre-season friendlies and he didn't impress me at all at that time.
He really needed to go on loan to a championship team last season and it is a crime that it didn't happen....David Moyes really is culpable for this.
I still think he needs the season out on loan before he is ready to play premiership football every week.

 

[blueser]

Gibson said in the Derry Journal that Moyes leaving will benefit Duffy, hope it does.

 

[boris]

The last time I saw Duffy play was in the pre-season friendlies and he didn't impress me at all at that time.
He really needed to go on loan to a championship team last season and it is a crime that it didn't happen....David Moyes really is culpable for this.
I still think he needs the season out on loan before he is ready to play premiership football every week.

We don't need him to play every week but he's good enough to get comfortably 15 - 20 games here next year. He can play the role Heitinga did the season just gone and be ready for us to start the season after.

 

[nevsonlymate]

Do you think BK is loving the additional attention by Sky, dragging it out like a bad episode of corrie, getting his additional 15 mins of fame again

 

[GrandOldTeam]

The last time I saw Duffy play was in the pre-season friendlies and he didn't impress me at all at that time.
He really needed to go on loan to a championship team last season and it is a crime that it didn't happen....David Moyes really is culpable for this.
I still think he needs the season out on loan before he is ready to play premiership football every week.

Agree with all this - but lets move Duffy discussion into a relevant thread.

 

[njligernj]

But I do think the ability to get a team to produce better performances than their opponents in quarter finals and finals is a one we need. Wigan were so so composed in those games while we and city fell apart. Moyes Everton have done a lot worse in cups then their league form would predict and I'm looking forward to that changing.

It's a fair enough point in theory I'm just not sure why you're so confident this is likely to change. Didn't Martinez get dumped out of a bunch of prior Cups to lower league opposition? I'm not even so much arguing the idea of league v. Cups as I am the idea that certain managers are better in Cups. He had a good run last year but why is that "the real Martinez" v. his pretty lousy record prior to this year?

2011/2012

F.A. Cup 3rd Round Swindon Town 2 - 1 Wigan Ath.
League Cup 2nd Round Crystal Palace 2 - 1 Wigan Ath.


2010/2011

F.A. Cup 4th Round Replay Wigan Ath. 0 - 1 Bolton Wdrs.
League Cup Quarter Final Arsenal 2 - 0 Wigan Ath.

2009/2010

F.A. Cup 4th Round Replay Wigan Ath. 0 - 2 Notts. County
League Cup 2nd Round Blackpool 4 - 1 Wigan Ath.

A lot of those teams have less/equal money to Wigan so the money excuse doesn't wash (aside from Arsenal loss of course).

Those early exits to lower league opposition didn't mean he couldn't win a Cup; however the Cup win doesn't mean the lower league losses can't happen again. For any team outside the top 4/5 Cup performance looks fairly random.

 

[Fazakerley Fan]

It's a fair enough point in theory I'm just not sure why you're so confident this is likely to change. Didn't Martinez get dumped out of a bunch of prior Cups to lower league opposition? I'm not even so much arguing the idea of league v. Cups as I am the idea that certain managers are better in Cups. He had a good run last year but why is that "the real Martinez" v. his pretty lousy record prior to this year?

2011/2012

F.A. Cup 3rd Round Swindon Town 2 - 1 Wigan Ath.
League Cup 2nd Round Crystal Palace 2 - 1 Wigan Ath.


2010/2011

F.A. Cup 4th Round Replay Wigan Ath. 0 - 1 Bolton Wdrs.
League Cup Quarter Final Arsenal 2 - 0 Wigan Ath.

2009/2010 F.A. Cup 4th Round Replay Wigan Ath. 0 - 2 Notts. County
League Cup 2nd Round Blackpool 4 - 1 Wigan Ath.

yet Martinez still won a major trophy in his short spell with Wigan. Something Moyes faled to do in over a decade

 

[quasi modo]

Our record in the cups throughout the Moyes era is nothing special.

We have lost against Shrewsbury and Oldham to name a couple.

 

[Wat Tyler]

Mcleish won a cup as well.

 

[njligernj]

yet Martinez still won a major trophy in his short spell with Wigan. Something Moyes faled to do in over a decade

Are you telling me Moyes never won a Cup and Martinez did? Well this changes everything. If Martinez were competing for this job against Moyes he'd be in the clear for sure.

If Martinez had won the Cup with Wigan in his first year and then been dumped out in the second, third of fourth round to lower league teams in the last three years would people still think of him as a great Cup manager?

Nobody is diminishing what winning a Cup means or how important it can be to the fans. The past isn't up for debate. It's a fact. The question is if those past results in something as random as a Cup can help determine future results. I just don't see any evidence of that.

Genuine question: how many managers (who haven't managed at super rich teams) in recent years can claim to be great Cup managers and back that up with multiple results?

 

[Allezfan]

It's a fair enough point in theory I'm just not sure why you're so confident this is likely to change. Didn't Martinez get dumped out of a bunch of prior Cups to lower league opposition? I'm not even so much arguing the idea of league v. Cups as I am the idea that certain managers are better in Cups. He had a good run last year but why is that "the real Martinez" v. his pretty lousy record prior to this year?

2011/2012

F.A. Cup 3rd Round Swindon Town 2 - 1 Wigan Ath.
League Cup 2nd Round Crystal Palace 2 - 1 Wigan Ath.


2010/2011

F.A. Cup 4th Round Replay Wigan Ath. 0 - 1 Bolton Wdrs.
League Cup Quarter Final Arsenal 2 - 0 Wigan Ath.

2009/2010

F.A. Cup 4th Round Replay Wigan Ath. 0 - 2 Notts. County
League Cup 2nd Round Blackpool 4 - 1 Wigan Ath.

A lot of those teams have less/equal money to Wigan so the money excuse doesn't wash (aside from Arsenal loss of course).

Those early exits to lower league opposition didn't mean he couldn't win a Cup; however the Cup win doesn't mean the lower league losses can't happen again. For any team outside the top 4/5 Cup performance looks fairly random.

Yeah, the main reason I slated Martinez a lot a few months back is that his record in cups prior to 2013 was utterly awful.

The game vs us was his first quarter final, I think.

But a better team should lose less often in the early round, see us reaching the quarters of one cup or the other in what 4 out of the last 6 years. And once you get into the buisness end, he's managed to do what was needed.

And being able to calm things down and produced good performances in those later rounds is a skill, you won't convicne me otherwise.

It's not a coincidence that three of the worst performances we've given over the last 3 years have happened in the later stages of the fa cup.

 

[njligernj]

Mcleish won a cup as well.

Exactly. Didn't stop him being fired (twice?) in the two/three years since.

Should I lump a bunch of cash on England next year because McClaren is a great Cup manger?

 

[Allezfan]

Genuine question: how many managers (who haven't managed at super rich teams) in recent years can claim to be great Cup managers and back that up with multiple results?

In england?

O'Neils Leicester were a genuine Cup team, Aldridges Tranmere too and Joe Royle had an excellent record in the cups. As did Ron Atkinson actually.

Depends what you call recent years, like.

 

[njligernj]

And once you get into the buisness end, he's managed to do what was needed. And being able to calm things down and produced good performances in those later rounds is a skill, you won't convicne me otherwise.

I don't want to convince you or anyone of that. I want someone to convince me that a sample size of two or three games should give me confidence he can replicate that success again when it's meant very little to other non-rich teams/managers who won a Cup.