Roberto Martinez Shenanigans: All Reaction Here

How do you feel about the Roberto Martinez hiring?

  • Great hire. He'll do better than Moyes.

    Votes: 65 18.4%

  • Good hire. There were better available.

    Votes: 116 32.9%

  • Meh

    Votes: 59 16.7%

  • Wasn't the worst. Wasn't the best.

    Votes: 96 27.2%

  • We're getting relegated.

    Votes: 17 4.8%
  • Total voters
    353
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njligernj said:
I don't want to convince you or anyone of that. I want someone to convince me that a sample size of two or three games should give me confidence he can replicate that success again when it's meant very little to other non-rich teams/managers who won a Cup.
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Who else are you talking about?

Laudrup hasn't had another chance. Souness hasn't managed in england since, McClaren hasn't manqged in the top flight since, McLiesh had one season since, Ramos hasn't managed in england since nor has Dalglish.

Those are the managers who over the last decade or so have gone into a competion in the quarter finals with a relatively poor team and held their nerve to win it. None of them as far as I can tell, with the sole expection of Redknapp who got a few semis and a final with spurs but nothing more, has been in that position since.

I'm saying that assuming Martinez is good enough at keeping our team together that we'd still be in that quarter final stage we have been for 4 of the last 6 years, he seems a better bet at steering us over the line than Moyes did.

Statistically Moyes had us at about 148% better then the average Pl manager gets their team, point per pound. Martinez had wigan at 125%. He improves that just a little, and I think there's signs he could at a better club, and he'll still have us as one of the top 8 in the league even if we're not quite where we were under Moyes.

And if you're one of those clubs it's just about holding your nerve. Which he's proven he can do in worse circumstances.
 

Artetafan said:
In england? O'Neils Leicester were a genuine Cup team, Aldridges Tranmere too and Joe Royle had an excellent record in the cups. As did Ron Atkinson actually. Depends what you call recent years, like.
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O'Neil is certainly a good shout. Had a great run at Leicester (and then I assume won some Cups at Celtic because how could you not?). But sure I'd say he seems to have more success in that arena than you'd expect. But I'm saying that based on 20 or so years of managing and a couple of Cup wins. The point is if we look at managers after winning their first Cup there are equal (or more) names you could mention who did nothing after that win.

But my main point isn't so much to argue history as to discover what it is people see in Martinez which I don't see. He seems to be the front-runner so I'm hoping I can get some of this confidence other people seem to have that he's got the goods.

I guess the problem I have is that two of the more common points in his pro column which people mention (Cups and results against big teams in the league) are things I don't particularly believe are important indicators to future success.
 
Artetafan said:
And if you're one of those clubs it's just about holding your nerve.
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You're over simplifying it.

It's not just about 'holding your nerve', it's about everything going for you on the day, everyone performing to their maximum, no-one making a stupid mistake & no shortage of luck.

McLeish didn't get past Arsenal by 'holding his nerve' he got a result by a defensive howler in the last minute gifting them the pot with extra time looming with Arsenal well on top.
 
Artetafan said:
Who else are you talking about? Laudrup hasn't had another chance. Souness hasn't managed in england since, McClaren hasn't manqged in the top flight since, McLiesh had one season since, Ramos hasn't managed in england since nor has Dalglish.
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Souness managed at Newcastle for a couple of years after winning the Cup (and another year at Blackburn I think ... maybe 3-4 years after winning?), McLeish managed long enough to get fired twice after winning. But yeah we have limited samples with Cups no doubt which is part of the problem proving anything on either side. That's kind of my point though ... that I just don't have enough evidence to feel confident it's "real" with Martinez and not just one lucky year.

Artetafan said:
And if you're one of those clubs it's just about holding your nerve. Which he's proven he can do in worse circumstances.
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Fair enough. I certainly hope you're right.
 

njligernj said:
O'Neil is certainly a good shout. Had a great run at Leicester (and then I assume won some Cups at Celtic because how could you not?). But sure I'd say he seems to have more success in that arena than you'd expect. But I'm saying that based on 20 or so years of managing and a couple of Cup wins. The point is if we look at managers after winning their first Cup there are equal (or more) names you could mention who did nothing after that win.

But my main point isn't so much to argue history as to discover what it is people see in Martinez which I don't see. He seems to be the front-runner so I'm hoping I can get some of this confidence other people seem to have that he's got the goods.

I guess the problem I have is that two of the more common points in his pro column which people mention (Cups and results against big teams in the league) are things I don't particularly believe are important indicators to future success.
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My main reasons for liking him are fairly simple.

1) Attitude - For us to kick on we need to stop showing too much respect to sides above us. That started to happen last season but it was too little and a bit too late for me. I think his attitude against those sides was that his team would go all out to impose themselves on the games and let the opposition worry about them.

I'm not saying that results in those games alone will be the defining factor in your season, but, it has a massive effect on the physcology of your players, How your fans view you & how the press report on your club. We've had an inferiority complex for some time and I believe it's hampered us at times when we were poised to achieve something.

2) He's used to working under tight budgets and finding quality players cheaply. That is and always will be important for us while Kenwright & co are here. I've no doubt we'll continue our conveyor belt of talented cheap buys with him in charge.
 
From WhoScored.com

485633_10151624597064127_1405323146_n.jpg


Martinez would be a good fit imo.
 
nigelcoyb said:
Kudos to Moyes for regularly getting a few places up from where finances dictate but we never went down fighting in the cups there were too many cup surrenders against all kinds over the years so the "solid league positions" become "meh". Despite the sort of sense you rightly highlight emotionally we were moribund.
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It's a fair point I can't deny it -- I just worry that we *want* something different so much that we are giving Martinez too much credit in that area because we want it to be true so badly.
 

Netromelo said:
From WhoScored.com

485633_10151624597064127_1405323146_n.jpg


Martinez would be a good fit imo.
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More long balls from Wigan and less shots won't go down well with those that genuinely believe Moyes didn't play attacking football but Wigan did.
They do clearly have better strikers though.
Your right though, pretty close stats which is impressive considering the gap in quality.

Edit: What Artetafan said.. but quicker than me
 
steken1 said:
My main reasons for liking him are fairly simple. 1) Attitude - For us to kick on we need to stop showing too much respect to sides above us. That started to happen last season but it was too little and a bit too late for me. I think his attitude against those sides was that his team would go all out to impose themselves on the games and let the opposition worry about them. I'm not saying that results in those games alone will be the defining factor in your season, but, it has a massive effect on the physcology of your players, How your fans view you & how the press report on your club. We've had an inferiority complex for some time and I believe it's hampered us at times when we were poised to achieve something.
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I do like the attitude he apparently tries to instil in players that's a great point. I'm more interested in how they might apply to our league record than the half-lottery of Cups but it's valid.

However I would say that I think for us to kick on we need to have a better attitude, discipline and killer instinct against the teams *below* us. We actually did fairly well against the top sides this year (you could even make a case that we did good to great in terms of points gained -- despite not getting the much talked about away win v. old sky four); meanwhile Arsenal did horrendously against the top teams and got fourth anyway because they beat the teams they should beat.

Now you could make a case with the 19th budget in the league there aren't many teams he was supposed to beat at Wigan. I wish he'd done better in "six-pointers" (but that's another way of saying I wish he hadn't been relegated I guess).
 

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