Ronald Koeman discussion

[willo30]

YeeHaw.......you tell 'em, fella


And that bit I highlighted?

File under last week's buzz phrase round these parts......"transitional season".

Manchester United are into their fourth "transitional season" since Ferguson retired

I wouldn't accept any old rubbish this season, this season needs to be better than the last. Transitional or not it has to be better, nobody gets a free run to me.
We need to remember our last 2 managers have been under totally different circumstances.

Moyes left and Martinez came in and his job was to keep us where we were to start with. He did that comfortably then took us to 11th and 13th (when he left). He had to go.

Martinez was sacked and Koeman was brought in and his goal was to be better than the previous manager. Don't think there is any argument that this is happening at the moment.

People can put this down to transition if they want but for me we needed stability which looks like we have now and a marked improvement in results. I will reserve judgement on my expectation for next season until I can see the quality of players we are able to attract now and in the summer.

 

[summerisle]

Be arsed reading that. Can you summarise with a gif or a drawing

 

[Khalekan]

Be arsed reading that. Can you summarise with a gif or a drawing

You should read it, Chris......it ain't half bad.

He makes an excellent point that Koeman would have been a splendid appointment for Uncle Billy, insofar he is a Moyes-esque "steady Eddie" type, perfectly suited to keeping the good ship EFC chugging along in the wake of the cruise liners, but ahead of the container boats, in an era when we were skint.

And that Martinez, or a tilter at windmills of that ilk, would have been a better appointment for Mr. Mo because the current manager did not capture the prevailing zeitgeist in the summer just gone when he was needing someone to put a face, and a voice, to the grandiose plans he has for the club.

There is one splendid passage in it where he describes the prospect us winning the 7th Place Trophy as being like getting into a "hot bathtub with Rihanna" for many of our friends on here

And he reckons @davek is more trolled against than trolling

A great post.

An early contender for "post of the year" and January not a week old.

Top stuff @njligernj


COYBB

 

[caught]

We all remember the process Chelsea and Man City went through where one year it was top ten, then 8th, then 7th, then 5th, then 4th ... then a little snake (or "chute" ffs) down to 6th but then boom it's 3rd then 2nd and then finally you win the Prem after years of mostly steady progress.

There is no such thing as this steady progress all of you claimed to like and you bloody know that!

Mansour bought City in the summer of 2008. The previous season they finished 9th. The following three seasons they finished 10th, 5th and 3rd, before winning the title in 2012. Isn't that 'steady progress'?

It's unlikely we'll experience the level of sustained investment City did, of course.

As for Koeman, he's achieved roughly what would be expected of any competent manager with this squad in terms of results. Our football has neither been particularly entertaining nor as bad as some make out, and we'll have to wait another couple of transfer windows before we get a proper idea of what he's looking to develop.

His comments in the media have been less than impressive. Martinez was embarrassing as soon as results turned and gladly Koeman isn't that bad, but he doesn't seem to see this job as a long term thing and we should probably get used to the idea he'll only be here for a few years.

 

[nsno-chris]

getting into a "hot bathtub with Rihanna

Literally only thing I read, then my mind went on a crazy adventure

 

[bicycleheader]

Yes of course! The slow steady progress we are all familiar with seeing in the Premier League. We all remember the process Chelsea and Man City went through where one year it was top ten, then 8th, then 7th, then 5th, then 4th ... then a little snake (or "chute" ffs) down to 6th but then boom it's 3rd then 2nd and then finally you win the Prem after years of mostly steady progress.

AND WE ALL KNOW THAT ONE YEAR REPRESENTS IRREVERSIBLE PROGRESS.

We have zero recent examples of any setbacks after progress to 7th or higher.

IT'S UNDENIABLE that to finish 7th is progress for Everton football club.

Of course it's January so maybe we shouldn't count our chickens before the eggs have even been laid let alone hatched ... but hey I don't have to surrender reality at the door when visiting the internet.

This argument is devoid of even an ounce of logic and ten+ people liked it and almost nobody likes Davek's comments which initiated this comment. I used to think Davek was trolling this site but now I think this entire site is trolling Davek.

Years ago Davek complained about Moyes being the captain of Bill Kenwright's hole filled boat ... Bill Kenwright's Everton was more hole than boat! ... and yet 7th or so every year wasn't good enough for Davek. Moyes, the miserable old so-and-so, got that rusty bath tub BK was passing off as a cruise-ship to the rubes to harbour every year somehow ... and often ahead of boats that cost actual money. He's practically Jesus Christ.

But Davek said NO! ... not good enough. And now you are all having your revenge by hiring Moyes 2.0 and saying 7th is undeniable progress.

Thing was there used to be more than just Davek. I'd say it was fairly evenly split for most of Moyes tenure ... although more had started to turn nearing the end of a decade (which is natural ... see: Wenger).

Why you can win the Prem and then finish bottom half (they've finished bottom half as much as we've finished 7th mate before your forum fingers get crazy) ... but isn't winning the Prem progress? How could they regress?

11th or 7th is largely the same result with an owner like Moshiri.

BK had no money ... steady eddie managers who grind out 7th placed average finishes is a "Rhianna nude in your hot-tub" level result for an owner like Bill Kenwright. We lived off the Prem money -- having a risk-taking "shoot for the moon" ... but maybe you finish bottom half instead type of manager made no sense for BK.

We were all so happy when Moshiri showed up we forgot he finished 11th two years in a row.

We used to say if BK finished bottom half two years in a row after building a squad with top six contending payroll and fees he wouldn't have enough money to run the club anymore and would sell the club to someone bad. Haha. Wrong! I mean sure Moshiri showed up coincidentally and bought the club and its a great deal and everything is going to be great forever ... but if that didn't happen BK would been fine and it isn't at all a coincidence he finally sold the club. He's very good at business and knows all the terms.

There is no such thing as this steady progress all of you claimed to like and you bloody know that!

Arsenal are in their second decade of "steadily progressing" I believe.

If we're about to try to pay 50m quid for someone many of us wanted to buy for 13m a few summers back we aren't that club.

I didn't like Moyes in the sense of producing fist pumping joy in my soul ... he was the best option for our situation at the time.

He fit.

The things Koeman says don't fit what Moshiri promises we will be and the things you all say don't fit who we say we are.

NSNO.

BK should have fired Martinez. He wasn't the right manager for an owner like BK.

Moshiri fired the kind of manager Moshiri needs and hired the kind of manager BK needed.

It doesn't matter if Martinez wasn't the right manager ... then fire Martinez and hire a manager "like" Martinez. The point is having the right fit for the right time.

Instead he hired the kind of manager BK needed ... not that BK as owner could have afforded or attracted Koeman at this precise moment in history but certainly if he'd hired him instead of Martinez that would have been appropriate for all involved.

I'm not here to say "you should hate Koeman" ... I just find it weird how everyone is just all-in on Moshiri and Koeman as if there are no red flags. It's bizarre and it's starting to seem like you've all just abandoned reason to troll Davek.

It's genuinely reminiscent to the Trump movement to me -- a bunch of red flags and yet a majority of people seem convinced for some reason.

I know "it's early" ... some would say when you allow Martinez to pay what Martinez paid for players you are adopting a specific strategy that takes time and three years in and 5/11/11 would be "early" to fire someone too ... but then there is that concept of PROGRESS ... if only it were 11/11/5 that would be SO different right? Progress. All prior years influence the following years. We're smart! Still ... not as if us not understanding basic concepts on the internet does any real harm right?

MAKE EVERTON GREAT AGAIN!

This is a cycle.

You are stuck in a loop.

Good post Nige.

I wanted a better version of Martinez to take over basically and then build a squad with a similar, but again better, progressive outlook.

IMHO we got average and steady in Koeman. It's not the end of the world, but it's not very exciting and is not going to get us near top 4 or success anytime soon I think.

I was a bit worried his recruitment policy while here might leave us without the tools for the next manager to build a decent footballing team, but I think the new structure with Walsh at the head should stop us from being setback too much from manager to manager.

 

[Khalekan]

Literally only thing I read, then my mind went on a crazy adventure

lol

 

[BlueToff]

You should read it, Chris......it ain't half bad.

He makes an excellent point that Koeman would have been a splendid appointment for Uncle Billy, insofar he is a Moyes-esque "steady Eddie" type, perfectly suited to keeping the good ship EFC chugging along in the wake of the cruise liners, but ahead of the container boats, in an era when we were skint.

And that Martinez, or a tilter at windmills of that ilk, would have been a better appointment for Mr. Mo because the current manager did not capture the prevailing zeitgeist in the summer just gone when he was needing someone to put a face, and a voice, to the grandiose plans he has for the club.

There is one splendid passage in it where he describes the prospect us winning the 7th Place Trophy as being like getting into a "hot bathtub with Rihanna" for many of our friends on here

And he reckons @davek is more trolled against than trolling

A great post.

An early contender for "post of the year" and January not a week old.

Top stuff @njligernj


COYBB

But he seems to assume that we're all happy iwth seventh place, when nobody is saying that.

But, 7th is progress on last year. Realistically, with the quality of and the money spent by the top six, we aren't bridging that gap this season.

But the target has always been top 7. We're on course for that with half of the season played.

We've also got the FA Cup and we could do with a good run.

Then we build again in the summer, by the time Koeman has had three windows to mould the side and Walsh has had three windows to find some 'gems' (for lack of a better term).

 

[BlueToff]

Good post Nige.

I wanted a better version of Martinez to take over basically and then build a squad with a similar, but again better, progressive outlook.

IMHO we got average and steady in Koeman. It's not the end of the world, but it's not very exciting and is not going to get us near top 4 or success anytime soon I think.

I was a bit worried his recruitment policy while here might leave us without the tools for the next manager to build a decent footballing team, but I think the new structure with Walsh at the head should stop us from being setback too much from manager to manager.

Martinez's 'style' has proven not to work.

He's actually adapted with the Belgium role and now pretty much plays a 3-4-3 ala Chelsea, to get the best out of Hazard.

 

[Goat]

2 seasons of finishing 11th and people are now turning their noses up at 7th as a starting point.

I just dont know what to say.

 

[squonk]

40 odd pages after a 3-0 win. Holy Moly.

 

[brieverton]

I am beginning to think that "steady progress" is really just good PR as in one sense it's hard to argue with it logically.

But I have come round to the view that breaking the current stranglehold of the Top 6 is going to require the sort of investment that we can really only dream is there, and that's not being critical of FM. I am wholeheartedly in his corner but we have yet to see declaration of intent - carried though to completion - on transfers.

I'm sure the majority will see it as a good job well done if RK returns us to that level (Top 6) over 2 seasons or more but when all is said and done, he needs to be backed to the extent that Champions League qualification is seen as being a viable prospect, and then judge him, if he is backed to that degree.

We have seen 25+ years come and go at Everton without any generation of managers and players "getting over the line" with the exception of 2004 in what was a dreadful season by the standards of our immediate peers then. Of course we dropped the ball bad luck or not but nearly has never won anything.

Of course, 2 of this years Top 6 will be mightily disappointed come May but even Spurs recently have gotten in on the act of CL football with all the associated prestige and advantages. The financial muscle of those clubs can sustain finishing 5th or 6th for a year or two.

We are accustomed to living without but I feel we are running out of opportunities to make a dent on the modern / Sky-era Premier League. The new stadium would help but we need significant spending also.

 

[GwladysPhil]

7th will most likely get us into the Europa League.

 

[Gwladysstreetlad]

7th will most likely get us into the Europa League.

Which will no doubt lead to more complaints from the normal suspects about the 'added burden of a nothing competition' until we inevitably crash out and the same fools complain about a 'wasted opportunity'. We really are in a lose-lose scenario with some of our own fans atm.​

 

[bicycleheader]

Martinez's 'style' has proven not to work.

He's actually adapted with the Belgium role and now pretty much plays a 3-4-3 ala Chelsea, to get the best out of Hazard.

I don't really mean his exact style, but more of a general progressive passing style. Not that I can say with authority that Koeman's style is the opposite of that. I just know I don't like what I have seen so far.

Anyway, we are getting on to personal preference here. We have the manager we have, and I will judge him on whether whatever style he has works after a reasonable amount of time. The comments on whether or not the style is "good" would just purely be based on my own wants.