Ronald Koeman discussion

[MikeH72]

Accepted by who?? When he was at southampton every southampton fan thought he was the best manager of the world, nobody had complaints with him and suddenly when he's gone the same people said he had some issues with players. I don't buy that. If mane didnt like him why would he reccomended Gueye to join Everton?? And why would he say in a interview last week that Koeman was a verry good manager who was loved by the whole club??Same with Tadic, he played really bad for half a season so it was verry normal that he ended up as a sub before he forced his way back to the team.

Same with Ross, he needs to improve and if he can't handle that than he will never be a top player. Guardiola is exactly the same in that area. If you don't perform or don't do the things he want he doesnt need you. Thats how things go at the top level.

I'm afraid the narrative has already been set mate. If Barkley doesn't develop into a top player then it's all Koeman's fault for not being able to harness his talents. If he DOES turn into a top player then it's because he's always had that talent and it's got nothing to do with Koeman whatsoever.

 

[squonk]

whats it going to be like when we actually lose a game ? Plotters will be out from under their rocks in force no doubt running around with their hair on fire

 

[Prevenger17]

Jaysus lads, we're 5 games in.

 

[davek]

Accepted by who?? When he was at southampton every southampton fan thought he was the best manager of the world, nobody had complaints with him and suddenly when he's gone the same people said he had some issues with players. I don't buy that. If mane didnt like him why would he reccomended Gueye to join Everton?? And why would he say in a interview last week that Koeman was a verry good manager who was loved by the whole club??Same with Tadic, he played really bad for half a season so it was verry normal that he ended up as a sub before he forced his way back to the team.

Same with Ross, he needs to improve and if he can't handle that than he will never be a top player. Guardiola is exactly the same in that area. If you don't perform or don't do the things he want he doesnt need you. Thats how things go at the top level.

I remember the reports from Adam Blackmore of Radio Solent who was quite close to matters at S'ton and he mentioned a number of times when Koeman was about to leave that certain players would be happy with that.

I dont mind it, tbh. As long as it's all done in-house and is designed to get the best out of players he can alienate or make happy who he wishes. I just think its daft to suggest someone who is blunt with players isn't going to cause ructions behind the scenes. That seems pretty flimsy to me.

 

[Kaiser Soysauce]

What we really need lads, is a manager who has a wet fart of a personality and will bow down to player power, that has always shown to be successful in football.

Roy Hodgson anyone?

 

[LouReedwalkonthewildside]

whats it going to be like when we actually lose a game ? Plotters will be out from under their rocks in force no doubt running around with their hair on fire

Plotters will always be here no matter who our manager was mate, was the same under Martinez, when we lost the usual suspects were out in force, we won, you didn't hear from them.

I know some will say their rants when we lost were justified after what eventually happened under Martinez.

 

[Barnfred 55]

I'm afraid the narrative has already been set mate. If Barkley doesn't develop into a top player then it's all Koeman's fault for not being able to harness his talents. If he DOES turn into a top player then it's because he's always had that talent and it's got nothing to do with Koeman whatsoever.

Depends what you call a top player. He's 22 and already has 22 caps, has scoring/assist records that, for his age, are comparable with other acknowledged premier greats such as Beckham, Gerrards, Scholes and Lampard, and is playing in a position that most accepted greats don't master until they are in their mid to late twenties. I would argue that he is already a top player, albeit one who is struggling a bit for form and consistency.

So as regards the narrative that has already been set, I would argue that if Barkley does step up to be a great player, then it's despite of Koeman's attempts to hold him back. If he doesn't, then Koeman's ruined his career, whilst in reality we will still have a very good player on our hands.

 

[davek]

I think that's true. I'm not sure there's much of an argument on that. The nature of the debate ought to be did we require that sort of abrasive manager? Or should/can some players be immune from it?

When you read Barry's interview recently about last season you do get the picture of a group of players who had let the manager down. While Barry accepts some responsibility I highly doubt he did and suspect he is one of the very few who can hold his head up high. (He is probably the only one who had a good season from start to finish last year). Time keeping, preparation, training, discipline all seemed to go out of the window. It was a telling interview.

I imagine Moshiri walked in and quite early got a picture of what was going wrong. While Kenwright eulogised a proper businessman could see things were out of control. I do wonder if Koeman has been brought in specifically with the M.O of putting some discipline back into this squad?

We know that very early on, Moshiri liked Koeman and likewise Koeman liked Moshiri. Given Koeman's character I doubt he sugarcoated anything and probably said I'f he was the manager he would give them a rocket.

Anyway I think that's central to his message and in all honesty I think it was essential for us. What we saw from Southampton was, even when players left he was very adept at finding new ones to come in.

My issue with this isn't whether it is the right thing now or indeed his desire not to make anyone immune (I think they will all benefit form a bit of discipline). However it is how he evolves this style. He hasn't stayed anywhere longer than 3 years and there is a shelf life for that management style. People (and footballers) will work hard and knuckle down for 6-12 months but eventually they need a bit of praise and acknowledgement they have got achieved something. Expected people to always work harder with no end goal is divisive.

What Koeman is good at, is in a crisis getting quick results and steadying the ship. His biggest challenge here will be if he can build upon that. I think he will have money to spend. You know as well as I do if we start throwing around anything like the figures of spend we are suggesting over the next 2 years consolidation in the top 6 alone will not be good enough in the eyes of the fans.

Excellent post mate.

We defo needed discipline back. More especially the players who Moyes signed and who survived under Martinez proved incapable of self motivating themselves as professional footballers and require a strong man to apply discipline on their game. I dont get that tbh. That level of professionalism should be there as a basic building block of a players game (ANY player's game). They call themselves grown men when they require a Sgt Major type like Moyes or Koeman to tell them to apply themselves to the job they do.

I think you add an important caveat though: apply the pressure too long (even on jellyfish like the Moyes-era players) and it can be counter productive at a certain point and spill over into strained relations. You hint that this is why Koeman spends an average of a couple of seasons at clubs. Maybe that will be the case, but hopefully this is is his 'home' and he feels we're a fit for him and he feels like putting down roots here when he didn't elsewhere....that's if he's successful like.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

I remember the reports from Adam Blackmore of Radio Solent who was quite close to matters at S'ton and he mentioned a number of times when Koeman was about to leave that certain players would be happy with that.

I dont mind it, tbh. As long as it's all done in-house and is designed to get the best out of players he can alienate or make happy who he wishes. I just think its daft to suggest someone who is blunt with players isn't going to cause ructions behind the scenes. That seems pretty flimsy to me.

The same Adam Blackmore who said he was staying at Soton and signing a new contract?

He's on the ball that fella.

 

[Gwladysstreetlad]

Not arsed about the PL season, tbh. I know where we'll finish right now: a pat on the head place between 6th and 8th. We had that loads of times and it's worthless...utterly worthless.

We all know your not arsed about the PL season davek, you've shown for the last two season's that you were quite content to watch us fall lower and lower, all the while praising your beloved with the misty eyed ecstasy of a fanatic. The reality however is that most of us who actually put our hands in our pockets week in and week out & travel all over the country to watch the blues in what you consider miningless and worthless games, do care!

 

[Saint Domingo]

I remember the reports from Adam Blackmore of Radio Solent who was quite close to matters at S'ton and he mentioned a number of times when Koeman was about to leave that certain players would be happy with that.

I dont mind it, tbh. As long as it's all done in-house and is designed to get the best out of players he can alienate or make happy who he wishes. I just think its daft to suggest someone who is blunt with players isn't going to cause ructions behind the scenes. That seems pretty flimsy to me.

Most managers fall out with players. Ferguson did it all the time. If it leads to success no one cares. Some Everton managers have fallen out with entire squads.

 

[catcherintherye]

Excellent post mate.

We defo needed discipline back. More especially the players who Moyes signed and who survived under Martinez proved incapable of self motivating themselves as professional footballers and require a strong man to apply discipline on their game. I dont get that tbh. That level of professionalism should be there as a basic building block of a players game (ANY player's game). They call themselves grown men when they require a Sgt Major type like Moyes or Koeman to tell them to apply themselves to the job they do.

I think you add an important caveat though: apply the pressure too long (even on jellyfish like the Moyes-era players) and it can be counter productive at a certain point and spill over into strained relations. You hint that this is why Koeman spends an average of a couple of seasons at clubs. Maybe that will be the case, but hopefully this is is his 'home' and he feels we're a fit for him and he feels like putting down roots here when he didn't elsewhere....that's if he's successful like.

I think you are right to call our professionalism. Lets be frank there's a reason why Barry's performances didn't dip and haven't dip in his entire career regardless of the manager. He's a real credit to the profession and it's easy to see why Martinez made him his first proper signing.

There are 2 issues with Koeman and time. The first will be whether he wants to stay here beyond 2 years, the second will be whether he has the skillset to. He seems to like moving upwards and is very ambitious. I'm not sure why he would show us any more loyalty than teams in his own country who he has won Trophies with. That being said if we get things right off the pitch and if the supposed investment in players we have been suggested to materialises over the next two years outside of the marquee jobs there will be few better places to manage than here.

The question about his skillset remains open though. In their own ways both Martinez and Moyes were "longer term" managers who were both trying to build over a longer period. Koeman hasn't done that yet. That's not to say he can't but he hasn't done so yet. I also think if we stagnate or plateaux at 5-8th as we did under Moyes I don't think people will be satisfied with that.

We'll see I am very happy with him as manager now. I think both parties have gone into it with their eyes open. We've given him a better chance of getting top 4 football and a trophy and he is the same. I'm not sure either party in their heads have looked beyond it being a two year fix. Having said that Everton is a special club and does grip people and there is a chance Koeman could be hooked. I do think his character suits Evertonians and scousers very well and we have a similar ethos. We will see.

 

[chippy1722]

I didn't want Koeman, preferred others and never knew of Koeman's character until he came here. I like him now, straight talker, seems to know what he wants and has clear idea's on how he thinks he can fulfil them.
We're doing well in the league and he has called a couple of players out at the moment, mainly Barkley but also mentioned the Spurs Goal and how Holgate should have done better, I have no problem with that and neither do the players it seems. It will be Interesting if we lose a few games and he still calls players out, or whether in those times he offers a bit more protection, also how people react to that situation will be telling.

As Rosy as everything is, there is absolutely no different to how people were feeling about Martinez at the time (didn't want him either) so it will be the tougher times when we learn the most.Koeman has said he has been dissapointed more times in an unbeaten run, than Martinez did in the whole of three seasons good and bad.

 

[Kev The Rat]

Excellent post mate.

We defo needed discipline back. More especially the players who Moyes signed and who survived under Martinez proved incapable of self motivating themselves as professional footballers and require a strong man to apply discipline on their game. I dont get that tbh. That level of professionalism should be there as a basic building block of a players game (ANY player's game). They call themselves grown men when they require a Sgt Major type like Moyes or Koeman to tell them to apply themselves to the job they do.

I think you add an important caveat though: apply the pressure too long (even on jellyfish like the Moyes-era players) and it can be counter productive at a certain point and spill over into strained relations. You hint that this is why Koeman spends an average of a couple of seasons at clubs. Maybe that will be the case, but hopefully this is is his 'home' and he feels we're a fit for him and he feels like putting down roots here when he didn't elsewhere....that's if he's successful like.

Dave you have to remember that most of these players are young people still in their twenties (Barry a notable exception), are doing a job like anyone else is doing a job and will benefit from clear leadership and instructions, particularly in a team sport where motivation and organisation are paramount. If timekeeping, training and discipline have slipped then are very much part of what a manager should be able to enforce at a club. The likes of Ferguson certainly had the 'fear factor' amongst the players - didn't do him any harm.

 

[Barnfred 55]

We all know your not arsed about the PL season davek, you've shown for the last two season's that you were quite content to watch us fall lower and lower, all the while praising your beloved with the misty eyed ecstasy of a fanatic. The reality however is that most of us who actually put our hands in our pockets week in and week out & travel all over the country to watch the blues in what you consider miningless and worthless games, do care!

If we had finished in 2 of those 3 worthless positions last season, we would have been in Europe and arguably found it easier to land the type of players we were linked with during the summer.