Ronald Koeman discussion

[ilikecheese]

10 games he's had...and looks like you are already prepared to equate RK with latter day Moyes. We simply do not have the squad strength to reach top 4 this season as long as we still have dross like Kone, Niasse, and others who imo simply don't have what is required to turn us into a potent attacking unit. Going to take at least 2 years to get rid of the defensive naiveties of the martinez era and ally this with some shrewd purchases to make us more dangerous going forward. My head says top 8 would be progress this season but heart wants top 4. RK has already started on the defensive side of things - I am prepared to give him time to really move us on. Actually enjoying going to the game this season!!

If you read further I said that I am not after the man's head or anything. I fully support the manager.

I think it is fair criticism to say we got very lucky getting a point when we really didn't deserve it. Very happy we got it...I just hope he learns from that game that playing as conservative as we did will likely lead to losses.

The Koeman I am hoping to see is the one that demands pressing all over the park...at least for stretches...regardless of the opponent.

 

[nsno-chris]

I'd be interested to know from the 10 competitive games so far what people think Koeman's method is and how it might change (or has changed since he left S'ton).

His main issue's were to address
1) defensive structure
2) fitness of the players

Once these are fully embedded in then we'll see a higher press and a quicker turnover of play. It was imperative that the defence was sorted to give us a foundation.

Oh, and I think JC would be quite happy

 

[hullefc]

Reading My Turn the Johan Cruyff autobiography right now. He only has nice things to say about Koeman. Doesn't go into detail but says he did a good job as coach at Ajax and was someone he wanted to take over as technical director there (the source of Cruyff's bad blood with LVG after he got the role against his advice to the Ajax board).

I mention this because I wonder how JC would have admired Koeman's time here at Everton thus far. Getting it down to fundamentals: Cruyff's method for football was to 'make the pitch large' when you had the ball, and 'make the pitch small' when you didn't - emphasising the role of finding space with the ball and pressing/getting close to the opposition when you didn't have it. <<< They are the basic building blocks a disciple of Cruyff usually adhere to.

Given that, is Koeman demonstrating this method here yet? For my money he isn't really succeeding in the former, and only partially succeeding in the latter.

That is going to be very hard to do with the front players we have. It would appear that those teams that play the pressing game the players immediately hunt the ball down when they lose it or have a shot and it stays in or gets tackled. Too many Lukaku, Barkley, Mirallas, Deulofeu are more concerned with putting their head in their hands or stopping and getting the hump rather than immediately trying to win it back. Bolasie for instance has been coached at Palace to try and win the ball back straight away.

It will take time to get everyone on board with this, some will respond and others may never quite get in and will be replaced.

 

[davek]

His main issue's were to address
1) defensive structure
2) fitness of the players

Once these are fully embedded in then we'll see a higher press and a quicker turnover of play. It was imperative that the defence was sorted to give us a foundation.

Oh, and I think JC would be quite happy

It's a fair point about pressing higher up the pitch...but it'll only happen if they sell Lukaku, because that lad will NEVER do that job.

However, the stretching of the space is possible with the ball, and they dont do it. We have the players used to attacking in numbers and switching flanks at speed. As it stands we aren't using that and we just see a predictable line of attack when we have the ball. I doubt VERY much whether Cruyff would have watched that and stayed in his seat for more than a few minutes.

 

[davek]

That is going to be very hard to do with the front players we have. It would appear that those teams that play the pressing game the players immediately hunt the ball down when they lose it or have a shot and it stays in or gets tackled. Too many Lukaku, Barkley, Mirallas, Deulofeu are more concerned with putting their head in their hands or stopping and getting the hump rather than immediately trying to win it back. Bolasie for instance has been coached at Palace to try and win the ball back straight away.

It will take time to get everyone on board with this, some will respond and others may never quite get in and will be replaced.

Yep, I just made that point to nsno chris....and Lukaku is the sticking point because, unlike the others, he's been key to our goal threat for the past three seasons.

 

[nsno-chris]

It's a fair point about pressing higher up the pitch...but it'll only happen if they sell Lukaku, because that lad will NEVER do that job.

However, the stretching of the space is possible with the ball, and they dont do it. We have the players used to attacking in numbers and switching flanks at speed. As it stands we aren't using that and we just see a predictable line of attack when we have the ball. I doubt VERY much whether Cruyff would have watched that and stayed in his seat for more than a few minutes.

Agree with lulaku, he's not a presser. I think the attacking side of the game will come when he's pretty confident that the foundation his in place. He'll concentrate more on the solid hard to beat side of things, like getting the players to back track more and know their positions. Give it till the new year and I think we'll see a more fluid attack.

 

[vagant59]

It's a fair point about pressing higher up the pitch...but it'll only happen if they sell Lukaku, because that lad will NEVER do that job.

However, the stretching of the space is possible with the ball, and they dont do it. We have the players used to attacking in numbers and switching flanks at speed. As it stands we aren't using that and we just see a predictable line of attack when we have the ball. I doubt VERY much whether Cruyff would have watched that and stayed in his seat for more than a few minutes.

Isn't what you are suggesting how we attacked over the last 2 seasons leaving ourselves wide open. The idea is great, however i don't think that we have the personnel to play that way yet. To many players do not track back ( barkley, gerry ), also Barry is very exposed when teams counter attack us with pace

 

[kithnou]

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/spor...s/everton-boss-koeman-reveals-doesnt-12048028

Everton boss Koeman reveals why he doesn't live in Liverpool city centre

• 15:56, 19 OCT 2016
• UPDATED 17:53, 19 OCT 2016
• BY PHIL KIRKBRIDE

Koeman's brother Erwin resides in town but Blues explains why he doesn't

• 

Ronald Koeman ahead of the match against Manchester City
Ronald Koeman has explained why he chose not to live in Liverpool.

The Everton boss resides in Alderley Edge, Cheshire while his brother Erwin - the Blues’ No2 - lives right in the heart of the city.

Koeman says he decided to make home away from the city in order to help him focus on the job of returning Everton to Europe.

Asked if he had settled in the area after taking charge in the summer, Koeman said: “Not really in the city of Liverpool, maybe for an assistant manager it is not a problem.

“Maybe I like to stay outside of the city.

“In my position it is better to stay outside and focus on your job.”

Koeman replaced Roberto Martinez in June and says Everton’s history was a big part in his decision to leave Southampton.

Alderley Edge, Cheshire, where Ronald Koeman has chosen to live.
Speaking at last night’s rescheduled awards evening, the Blues boss said: “If you see the evening, you see the history of the club and, of course, I knew from my football career that Everton was a big club.

“And with all the respect, a bigger club than Southampton is.

“It is a new challenge and, after the first two meetings with the board of the club, I felt it would be really enjoyable to step in and so far it is going well.



Ronald Koeman comment: It's strictly business for Everton now


“You feel the history of the club and the support of the fans but you need time to understand to see.

“There are a lot of new faces, it is a new management and that always takes time.

“But the results have been positive and that makes the job a bit more comfortable.

Ronald Koeman during his time in charge of Southampton
“But if you have a lot of experience in football then you know what happened last week does not count, it is all about the next.”

Koeman has been bowled over by the extent of Everton’s support - both at home and away.

“When I became manager of Everton they told me that Everton was one of the four or five clubs who always take the maximum number of fans to away games,” he told the crowd at District House in Liverpool’s city centre.

“That is great support, great support for the players and you feel yourself supported and that makes the team stronger and it is really enjoyable when you get a win away and you can celebrate with all the fans.”

 

[BlueToff]

http://www.umaxit.com/index.php/columns/everton-already-look-like-a-ronald-koeman-team

One of the Premier League’s more interesting statistics relates to Everton’s defence: with eight games played, Ronald Koeman’s team are averaging less than one goal conceded per match and have the division’s second best defensive record behind Tottenham.

Given what Everton descended into under Roberto Martinez and how chaotically their defending typically was towards the end of his tenure, that’s some turnaround. Remarkable.

But actually, also entirely predictable: this is Koeman, this is what he does.

Team-building is something of a lost art in modern football and its contemporary meaning has come to imply a situation with a lot of money being spent and many new faces being brought in. Yes – literally – that equates to team-building, but Koeman’s approach appears novelly archaic. At Feyenoord – and more famously at Southampton – he handled extremely fluid situations. Both clubs were sellers – Feyenoord because of their financial turmoil, Southampton due to their place withiin the food chain – and yet, despite superior components being traded away, he was able to provide an admirable stability and, ultimately, laudable improvement in each case.

In both instances he used the transfer-market creatively, but Koeman’s greatest influence was apparent in the structure rather than the composition of his teams. Both of those previous sides – and now also Everton – had rich seams of talent, but the Dutch manager’s principal success was to ensure that each added up to more than the sum of their parts. A Ronald Koeman football team is strictly disciplined, rigid in its shape, and extremely difficult to penetrate in central areas, and that hints at both a sharp tactical mind and an effective way of communicating with players on the training field.

To appreciate this fully, it’s important to contextualise the timeframe in which Everton have improved. They are not yet perfect and remain a work-in-progress, but consider how quickly the squad has acquired its manager’s personality: appreciate that it is still only October, that Everton were an ideological mess as recently as May, and that they are currently one of the toughest nuts to crack in the Premier League. Furthermore, remember the common preachings of other, more famous managers at financially advantaged clubs. Louis van Gaal spent much of his two years at Manchester United urging patience and promising a philosophy which was never delivered, Jurgen Klopp’s Liverpool have only recently – after a year – started to adhere consistently to their manager’s beliefs, and Jose Mourinho continues to preside over a muddle of expensive players and vague directions.

Even Mauricio Pochettino, now heralded up and down the country, took almost six months to have a telling impact on Tottenham in his first season; there was no quick-fix there and Spurs were often a shambles between August and December of 2014.

So what Koeman is doing is extremely impressive. There remain some flaws at Everton, with the attacking parts yet to find a true equilibrium and opponents still capable of frustrating their combinations, but their trajectory is undeniably positive. Idrissa Gueye has arrived and rapidly become the cornerstone of dogged midfield, Seamus Coleman’s form has returned to that of several years ago, and – despite a few rash moments at the weekend – the Ashley Williams/Phil Jagielka combination at centre-half looks extremely resilient. There have been individual improvements, of course, but they’ve been bound and enhanced by an almost instantaneous organisation mastic.

Or, in less pretentious terms: coaching.

At times, Roberto Martinez seemed like a modern Kevin Keegan: under him, Everton often tried to ad lib their way through games and much of their play, particularly in their own half, was reactive and impulsive rather than obviously structured. The consequence was ultimately fear. And mistakes – a lot of them. Everton lost a lot of games and conceded so many goals because, it appeared as if, they didn’t adapt to the strengths of the opposition. Martinez had certain attacking ambitions and beliefs about the game and, likeable person though he was, that naivety created a perpetual vulnerability in his players.

Koeman is his antithesis. The Dutchman is not a reductive, style-killing coach, but his various philosophies are all underwritten by street smarts and ambition. His appointment looked smart at the time it was made and his track-record certainly suggested that he would have Everton’s nose pointing up in a short space of time, but that this side already look like one his teams – that they are already exhibiting some of those desirable Southampton characteristics – is a feat for which he probably isn’t being applauded enough.

 

[Ballyfermot]

From reading a few hundred pages or so I am getting the feeling there is like a Martinez hangover going on. It seems to be perpetuated by a group of lads that have backed the old manager and are indirectly bitter towards this manager at other poster. They are putting him under scrutiny because they believe their 'man' was put under it towards the end of his Everton career.

It's not right lads. What did Koeman do to deserve this. This stuff is been written about him and been but out there on the web by Evertonians on spite. The ends don't justify the means. It's early days and we are doing well. Lets move on and go forward.

COYB

 

[MikeH72]

From reading a few hundred pages or so I am getting the feeling there is like a Martinez hangover going on. It seems to be perpetuated by a group of lads that have backed the old manager and are indirectly bitter towards this manager at other poster. They are putting him under scrutiny because they believe their 'man' was put under it towards the end of his Everton career.

It's not right lads. What did Koeman do to deserve this. This stuff is been written about him and been but out there on the web by Evertonians on spite. The ends don't justify the means. It's early days and we are doing well. Lets move on and go forward.

COYB

 

[toffeeblue9]

Reading My Turn the Johan Cruyff autobiography right now. He only has nice things to say about Koeman. Doesn't go into detail but says he did a good job as coach at Ajax and was someone he wanted to take over as technical director there (the source of Cruyff's bad blood with LVG after he got the role against his advice to the Ajax board).

I mention this because I wonder how JC would have admired Koeman's time here at Everton thus far. Getting it down to fundamentals: Cruyff's method for football was to 'make the pitch large' when you had the ball, and 'make the pitch small' when you didn't - emphasising the role of finding space with the ball and pressing/getting close to the opposition when you didn't have it. <<< They are the basic building blocks a disciple of Cruyff usually adhere to.

Given that, is Koeman demonstrating this method here yet? For my money he isn't really succeeding in the former, and only partially succeeding in the latter.

You know Dave, I don't think you've been giving Koeman a fair crack of the whip so far and have been a bit quick to draw conclusions. Having said that, it's a reasonable point to make here.

It would have been a big surprise if Koeman went totally Cruyff when he got here as our issue was not expansive play or even scoring goals (mostly), it was defensive fragility and discipline.

He's addressed those two as a matter of urgency - we're still doing ok as an attacking unit (IMO) but I'd agree there's a fair way to go yet. The basics of defending as a unit and instilling discipline in the team have come first. He wants to instill a pressing game into the team and that will take a little bit longer, he says.

In short, you're right to point out that Koeman's not exactly ticking all of the boxes from JC's textbook yet, but we are a work in progress. There is even (and you'll like this bit) good work Martinez did here that Koeman will be able to expand upon as far as the attacking side of things goes, but right now he appears to be concentrating on making sure we're not shipping goals first. I have no issue with this, he's identified priorities and is addressing them first. I would expect to see improvement in the style we play eventually (although it hasn't exactly been Pulis-esque so far).

Having said that, even the great Johann Cruyff was a pragmatist when the situation called for it - he would launch long balls for the last five minutes of a game and send the centre half up front if required - something Pep (arguably his most "pure" disciple) did against us on Saturday.

I also wonder if Koeman's experiences after Ajax at Benfica and particularly Valencia made him refine his philosophy a bit - the expansive JC way is great if you have the players, but if you don't it can leave you wide open - something I think Martinez did. He would tell you that he was a huge JC disciple too.

 

[davek]

You know Dave, I don't think you've been giving Koeman a fair crack of the whip so far and have been a bit quick to draw conclusions. Having said that, it's a reasonable point to make here.

It would have been a big surprise if Koeman went totally Cruyff when he got here as our issue was not expansive play or even scoring goals (mostly), it was defensive fragility and discipline.

He's addressed those two as a matter of urgency - we're still doing ok as an attacking unit (IMO) but I'd agree there's a fair way to go yet. The basics of defending as a unit and instilling discipline in the team have come first. He wants to instill a pressing game into the team and that will take a little bit longer, he says.

In short, you're right to point out that Koeman's not exactly ticking all of the boxes from JC's textbook yet, but we are a work in progress. There is even (and you'll like this bit) good work Martinez did here that Koeman will be able to expand upon as far as the attacking side of things goes, but right now he appears to be concentrating on making sure we're not shipping goals first. I have no issue with this, he's identified priorities and is addressing them first. I would expect to see improvement in the style we play eventually (although it hasn't exactly been Pulis-esque so far).

Having said that, even the great Johann Cruyff was a pragmatist when the situation called for it - he would launch long balls for the last five minutes of a game and send the centre half up front if required - something Pep (arguably his most "pure" disciple) did against us on Saturday.

I also wonder if Koeman's experiences after Ajax at Benfica and particularly Valencia made him refine his philosophy a bit - the expansive JC way is great if you have the players, but if you don't it can leave you wide open - something I think Martinez did. He would tell you that he was a huge JC disciple too.

The thing I dont buy so far about Koeman the Pragmatist (and I say this as someone who fully recognises it's very early days and the manager shouldn't be judged on anything until he has a season and a couple of windows under his belt) is the fact that most pragmatic managers tend to assess what they've inherited and adapt to it. They retain good points - whatever is salvageable and works - and they identify what went wrong and work on it. I terms of the latter I do think he's addressing this...but maybe over-egging the pudding: I think what we're seeing here so far on the defensive improvement is down to sheer numbers behind the ball rather than a back four whipped into shape, which is what I expected his coaching to do...and the purchase of Williams). In terms of the former, though, I dont see how he's retaining our attacking prowess (something that has a relationship with the earlier point about committing a lot of bodies behind the ball). It's clear he's compromising up front by using Lukaku as he was used under Martinez, by servicing him as an out and out goalscorer. But the whole attacking unit under Martinez has been undermined by his insistence on releasing the ball quickly out of the back and by-passing the midfield (one of the reasons Barkley is looking increasingly like a spare arse part). Koeman talks a lot about striking a balance between retaining the ball and constructing moves out the back and knowing when to release it forward more directly. There's no way that is happening right now. We err toward a more direct style of forward play. Now, maybe that has to do with this lot of ex'Moyes players at the back who dont need much excuse to fall into old ways and launch it early and long. But whatever it is I sincerely hope the style we currently adopt evolves to something less basic.

 

[davek]

http://www.umaxit.com/index.php/columns/everton-already-look-like-a-ronald-koeman-team

One of the Premier League’s more interesting statistics relates to Everton’s defence: with eight games played, Ronald Koeman’s team are averaging less than one goal conceded per match and have the division’s second best defensive record behind Tottenham.

Given what Everton descended into under Roberto Martinez and how chaotically their defending typically was towards the end of his tenure, that’s some turnaround. Remarkable.

But actually, also entirely predictable: this is Koeman, this is what he does.

Team-building is something of a lost art in modern football and its contemporary meaning has come to imply a situation with a lot of money being spent and many new faces being brought in. Yes – literally – that equates to team-building, but Koeman’s approach appears novelly archaic. At Feyenoord – and more famously at Southampton – he handled extremely fluid situations. Both clubs were sellers – Feyenoord because of their financial turmoil, Southampton due to their place withiin the food chain – and yet, despite superior components being traded away, he was able to provide an admirable stability and, ultimately, laudable improvement in each case.

In both instances he used the transfer-market creatively, but Koeman’s greatest influence was apparent in the structure rather than the composition of his teams. Both of those previous sides – and now also Everton – had rich seams of talent, but the Dutch manager’s principal success was to ensure that each added up to more than the sum of their parts. A Ronald Koeman football team is strictly disciplined, rigid in its shape, and extremely difficult to penetrate in central areas, and that hints at both a sharp tactical mind and an effective way of communicating with players on the training field.

To appreciate this fully, it’s important to contextualise the timeframe in which Everton have improved. They are not yet perfect and remain a work-in-progress, but consider how quickly the squad has acquired its manager’s personality: appreciate that it is still only October, that Everton were an ideological mess as recently as May, and that they are currently one of the toughest nuts to crack in the Premier League. Furthermore, remember the common preachings of other, more famous managers at financially advantaged clubs. Louis van Gaal spent much of his two years at Manchester United urging patience and promising a philosophy which was never delivered, Jurgen Klopp’s Liverpool have only recently – after a year – started to adhere consistently to their manager’s beliefs, and Jose Mourinho continues to preside over a muddle of expensive players and vague directions.

Even Mauricio Pochettino, now heralded up and down the country, took almost six months to have a telling impact on Tottenham in his first season; there was no quick-fix there and Spurs were often a shambles between August and December of 2014.

So what Koeman is doing is extremely impressive. There remain some flaws at Everton, with the attacking parts yet to find a true equilibrium and opponents still capable of frustrating their combinations, but their trajectory is undeniably positive. Idrissa Gueye has arrived and rapidly become the cornerstone of dogged midfield, Seamus Coleman’s form has returned to that of several years ago, and – despite a few rash moments at the weekend – the Ashley Williams/Phil Jagielka combination at centre-half looks extremely resilient. There have been individual improvements, of course, but they’ve been bound and enhanced by an almost instantaneous organisation mastic.

Or, in less pretentious terms: coaching.

At times, Roberto Martinez seemed like a modern Kevin Keegan: under him, Everton often tried to ad lib their way through games and much of their play, particularly in their own half, was reactive and impulsive rather than obviously structured. The consequence was ultimately fear. And mistakes – a lot of them. Everton lost a lot of games and conceded so many goals because, it appeared as if, they didn’t adapt to the strengths of the opposition. Martinez had certain attacking ambitions and beliefs about the game and, likeable person though he was, that naivety created a perpetual vulnerability in his players.

Koeman is his antithesis. The Dutchman is not a reductive, style-killing coach, but his various philosophies are all underwritten by street smarts and ambition. His appointment looked smart at the time it was made and his track-record certainly suggested that he would have Everton’s nose pointing up in a short space of time, but that this side already look like one his teams – that they are already exhibiting some of those desirable Southampton characteristics – is a feat for which he probably isn’t being applauded enough.

8 games into a season and the hyperbole kicks in. We have two more points than this time last season.

It's been the best start since...2013/14.

Feet should be firmly on the ground.

 

[BlueToff]

8 games into a season and the hyperbole kicks in. We have two more points than this time last season.

It's been the best start since...2013/14.

Feet should be firmly on the ground.

They are - but that's a totally balanced article.