Ross Barkley

[Tubey]

Not on a wind up at all. You said it happens at every level of the game, so it'll happen in the prem as well, by that logic. If it's as bad at all levels, what's the problem with the championship? Either way, if Barkley is really a great, he'll do well anyway. Doesn't stop Messi does it?

Rooney plays with fire – Everton, 2003

Fearlessness comes in many forms on a football pitch, but teasing a 15st, 6ft-square centre-half called Darren Moore borders on the reckless. Everton were leading Moore's West Bromwich Albion 1-0 when the 17-year-old substitute Wayne Rooney entered the fray, enticed the defender towards him, then stood on the ball with his hands on his hips before sauntering away. He escaped with nothing more than a rebuke. "If I can pass one piece of advice to the 17-year-old I'd tell him to wipe out the arrogant side of his game," admonished Moore. "I wouldn't advise him to do it again - otherwise he'll learn the hard way."

----------------------

A good player, combined with a limited opponent, is dangerous. I believe Barkley to be the most gifted English midfielder to emerge since Gazza, so if he goes out on loan and starts running rings around opposition in the Championship with the audacious skill and piercing passes we've seen in glimpses at Everton, then a Darren Moore-esque clogger will give him a smash. It happens - it's to avoid embarrassment, limited players get frustrated and lash out.

And a second severe leg break or a severe ligament injury could mean career over.

We're not talking about an Osman or a Vellios here - we're talking about potentially the best player to ever emerge at Everton, and I for one would think carefully before sending him out on loan to the lower leagues.

It's why I've said it's all about risk in the above posts, and why I'm in two minds. If I were managing Barkley, I'd be increasing the amount of minutes he has on the pitch at Everton, five minutes extra every game, praising him when he impresses and training out the flaws at the top facilities at Finch Farm amongst good players. If by the end of the season he is consistently having 30 minute cameos off the bench then that's a good season for him as far as I'm concerned, as he's 18.

I think this approach is a lot more favourable than sending him to a lesser side who will struggle all season, denting his confidence and increasing his exposure to injury. But it's just an opinion... If he goes on loan I hope I'm not pulling up this thread as an "I told you so" kind of thing when he's scissored by a Championship Kevin Nolan wannabe.

 

[steken1]

Tubes,

I disagree with your point, but I can see where your coming from.

It depends on your attitude towards risk to reward.

 

[tim cahill]

Rooney plays with fire – Everton, 2003

Fearlessness comes in many forms on a football pitch, but teasing a 15st, 6ft-square centre-half called Darren Moore borders on the reckless. Everton were leading Moore's West Bromwich Albion 1-0 when the 17-year-old substitute Wayne Rooney entered the fray, enticed the defender towards him, then stood on the ball with his hands on his hips before sauntering away. He escaped with nothing more than a rebuke. "If I can pass one piece of advice to the 17-year-old I'd tell him to wipe out the arrogant side of his game," admonished Moore. "I wouldn't advise him to do it again - otherwise he'll learn the hard way."

----------------------

A good player, combined with a limited opponent, is dangerous. I believe Barkley to be the most gifted English midfielder to emerge since Gazza, so if he goes out on loan and starts running rings around opposition in the Championship with the audacious skill and piercing passes we've seen in glimpses at Everton, then a Darren Moore-esque clogger will give him a smash. It happens - it's to avoid embarrassment, limited players get frustrated and lash out.

And a second severe leg break or a severe ligament injury could mean career over.

We're not talking about an Osman or a Vellios here - we're talking about potentially the best player to ever emerge at Everton, and I for one would think carefully before sending him out on loan to the lower leagues.

It's why I've said it's all about risk in the above posts, and why I'm in two minds. If I were managing Barkley, I'd be increasing the amount of minutes he has on the pitch at Everton, five minutes extra every game, praising him when he impresses and training out the flaws at the top facilities at Finch Farm amongst good players. If by the end of the season he is consistently having 30 minute cameos off the bench then that's a good season for him as far as I'm concerned, as he's 18.

I think this approach is a lot more favourable than sending him to a lesser side who will struggle all season, denting his confidence and increasing his exposure to injury. But it's just an opinion... If he goes on loan I hope I'm not pulling up this thread as an "I told you so" kind of thing when he's scissored by a Championship Kevin Nolan wannabe.

That example you've picked out is about a player deliberately trying to embarrass another player in an arrogant way. That's completely different to just outplaying them.

 

[Tubey]

Tubes,

I disagree with your point, but I can see where your coming from.

It depends on your attitude towards risk to reward.

Bold bit is my entire point in a nutshell. If it were Vellios, I'd be saying "get him out on loan, he'd benefit 100% from regular games" but with a precocious talent like Barkley you need to think hard about what to do. Remember, Sheff Wed are newly promoted to the league and will struggle this year; that's worth thinking about. As is who he'll play with, will he get 90 minutes every game (no point sending him out for cameos at a Championship club)... these are all things Everton will be considering.

That example you've picked out is about a player deliberately trying to embarrass another player in an arrogant way. That's completely different to just outplaying them.

Not at all. Embarrassment, anger, frustration... all leads to the same outcome; aggression. Messi isn't taking the mick when he's at his brilliant best, but opponents hack him all the same. Ronaldo had it in England.

It happens in the Premier League but I just feel you exacerbate the risk at Championship level - so there'd better be a really good reason for taking that risk.

 

[Seamus Colemole]

If he goes on loan I hope I'm not pulling up this thread as an "I told you so" kind of thing when he's scissored by a Premier League thug like Lee Cattermole or Kevin Nolan himself.

Getting smashed by some thug who can't beat him fairly is a risk we run in any game in any league.

Sure, its probably more likely in a lower league than in the Prem overall but thats balanced out by the fact he has to get games and ain't gonna get them here right now.

Plenty of younger players have been loaned out from Prem teams to lower leagues and i don't believe many if any of them have been clobbered by some rougharse and crippled, they might not have had the talent of Barkley but its a choice that needs to be made and i;d say a loan to a bottom half Prem team is best but if thats not possible then a Cahmpionship side like Wednesday.

 

[Tubey]

Getting smashed by some thug who can't beat him fairly is a risk we run in any game in any league.

Sure, its probably more likely in a lower league than in the Prem overall but thats balanced out by the fact he has to get games and ain't gonna get them here right now.

Plenty of younger players have been loaned out from Prem teams to lower leagues and i don't believe many if any of them have been clobbered by some rougharse and crippled.

That's all I'm saying lad - risk assessment. I think I've said "I'm in two minds about a loan" about ten times haha

 

[TheNinja]

Rooney plays with fire – Everton, 2003

Fearlessness comes in many forms on a football pitch, but teasing a 15st, 6ft-square centre-half called Darren Moore borders on the reckless. Everton were leading Moore's West Bromwich Albion 1-0 when the 17-year-old substitute Wayne Rooney entered the fray, enticed the defender towards him, then stood on the ball with his hands on his hips before sauntering away. He escaped with nothing more than a rebuke. "If I can pass one piece of advice to the 17-year-old I'd tell him to wipe out the arrogant side of his game," admonished Moore. "I wouldn't advise him to do it again - otherwise he'll learn the hard way."

----------------------

A good player, combined with a limited opponent, is dangerous. I believe Barkley to be the most gifted English midfielder to emerge since Gazza, so if he goes out on loan and starts running rings around opposition in the Championship with the audacious skill and piercing passes we've seen in glimpses at Everton, then a Darren Moore-esque clogger will give him a smash. It happens - it's to avoid embarrassment, limited players get frustrated and lash out.

And a second severe leg break or a severe ligament injury could mean career over.

We're not talking about an Osman or a Vellios here - we're talking about potentially the best player to ever emerge at Everton, and I for one would think carefully before sending him out on loan to the lower leagues.

It's why I've said it's all about risk in the above posts, and why I'm in two minds. If I were managing Barkley, I'd be increasing the amount of minutes he has on the pitch at Everton, five minutes extra every game, praising him when he impresses and training out the flaws at the top facilities at Finch Farm amongst good players. If by the end of the season he is consistently having 30 minute cameos off the bench then that's a good season for him as far as I'm concerned, as he's 18.

I think this approach is a lot more favourable than sending him to a lesser side who will struggle all season, denting his confidence and increasing his exposure to injury. But it's just an opinion... If he goes on loan I hope I'm not pulling up this thread as an "I told you so" kind of thing when he's scissored by a Championship Kevin Nolan wannabe.

Have you seen some of the tackles that happen in the Premier League? I take it you don't watch much Championship football either, because there are no more bad tackles than there are in the Premier League...

The problem with giving him '30 minute' cameos at Everton is that 1) We have better players than him currently in the positions he would play 2) Games are often so tight in the Prem, that 30 minutes is often too long to risk a young in-experienced player (and we've all seen that Moyes won't tolerate continuous mistakes or showboating).

At 18, he looks physically strong enough to be playing competitive 90 minute football at a good level. He also needs experience and I really can't see how a loan to a football playing Championship club will do him anything but good.

 

[Seamus Colemole]

That's all I'm saying lad - risk assessment. I think I've said "I'm in two minds about a loan" about ten times haha

I think you're overstating the likelyhood of him recieving a serious injury from some thug happening in the championship compared to the Prem so taking that into play you should really be sitting around 70/30 in favour of a move rather than 50/50.

 

[Tubey]

Have you seen some of the tackles that happen in the Premier League? I take it you don't watch much Championship football either, because there are no more bad tackles than there are in the Premier League...

The problem with giving him '30 minute' cameos at Everton is that 1) We have better players than him currently in the positions he would play 2) Games are often so tight in the Prem, that 30 minutes is often too long to risk a young in-experienced player (and we've all seen that Moyes won't tolerate continuous mistakes or showboating).

At 18, he looks physically strong enough to be playing competitive 90 minute football at a good level. He also needs experience and I really can't see how a loan to a football playing Championship club will do him anything but good.

First paragraph isn't worth a response.

Second paragraph shows you haven't read what I've said, as I'm not advocating 30 minutes a game right now. I'm saying he should be given increasingly more minutes as recognition for good performances off the bench. He's more likely to adapt to the requirements of a midfielder at Everton whilst being involved with the actual Everton first team in my books, as mad as that may seem!

Third paragraph... well, that's possible. I'm saying that a loan move isn't the no-brainer everyone seems to think it is, that's all. I'm not saying it's destined to end badly; all I'm saying is that all of the people clamouring for a Barkley loan move should think about the other side of the discussion and understand the reason we shouldn't be loaning him out to the first club to show an interest without properly thinking of the pro's and con's.

 

[paulbefc]

Rooney plays with fire – Everton, 2003

Fearlessness comes in many forms on a football pitch, but teasing a 15st, 6ft-square centre-half called Darren Moore borders on the reckless. Everton were leading Moore's West Bromwich Albion 1-0 when the 17-year-old substitute Wayne Rooney entered the fray, enticed the defender towards him, then stood on the ball with his hands on his hips before sauntering away. He escaped with nothing more than a rebuke. "If I can pass one piece of advice to the 17-year-old I'd tell him to wipe out the arrogant side of his game," admonished Moore. "I wouldn't advise him to do it again - otherwise he'll learn the hard way."

----------------------

A good player, combined with a limited opponent, is dangerous. I believe Barkley to be the most gifted English midfielder to emerge since Gazza, so if he goes out on loan and starts running rings around opposition in the Championship with the audacious skill and piercing passes we've seen in glimpses at Everton, then a Darren Moore-esque clogger will give him a smash. It happens - it's to avoid embarrassment, limited players get frustrated and lash out.

And a second severe leg break or a severe ligament injury could mean career over.

We're not talking about an Osman or a Vellios here - we're talking about potentially the best player to ever emerge at Everton, and I for one would think carefully before sending him out on loan to the lower leagues.

It's why I've said it's all about risk in the above posts, and why I'm in two minds. If I were managing Barkley, I'd be increasing the amount of minutes he has on the pitch at Everton, five minutes extra every game, praising him when he impresses and training out the flaws at the top facilities at Finch Farm amongst good players. If by the end of the season he is consistently having 30 minute cameos off the bench then that's a good season for him as far as I'm concerned, as he's 18.

I think this approach is a lot more favourable than sending him to a lesser side who will struggle all season, denting his confidence and increasing his exposure to injury. But it's just an opinion... If he goes on loan I hope I'm not pulling up this thread as an "I told you so" kind of thing when he's scissored by a Championship Kevin Nolan wannabe.

Fair points. I agree in that there's a risk, sure. I just don't think it's anywhere near big enough to deny him a great opportunity. Everything bar that risk points to a loan being a fantastic chance for the lad. As I said before, if he gets injured, that's life. Either way, he's not warranting game time here and this is the only way for him to walk straight into an XI at a higher level than he is now. They may struggle all season, yes, but so did we in Rooney's second season and he still lit the world alight.

Sorry, by the way, if I came off as a WUM, like. Don't think I've ever gone on a wind up on here on anyone before and don't intend to at all!

EDIT: And I do appreciate that you're in two minds about it, not opposed to it.

 

[davek]

Moyes has handled this situation all wrong. He had faith in him enough early last season to give him a few starts and it was repaid. Then he took him out of the first team, never to be seen again there after looking a bit iffy in a game. Now he's punting him on loan at a time when we have an even more wafer thin squad than last season. None of it makes sense.

 

[Muggins]

Moyes has handled this situation all wrong. He had faith in him enough early last season to give him a few starts and it was repaid. Then he took him out of the first team, never to be seen again there after looking a bit iffy in a game. Now he's punting him on loan at a time when we have an even more wafer thin squad than last season. None of it makes sense.

The reason it doesn't make sense mate is that you're not getting all the information involved in this situation. There's missing parts to the puzzle that only Moyes and a few others know.

 

[Goat]

Ross Barkley.

He aint all that.

 

[Deloodid]

Ross Barkley.

He aint all that.

Are you talking the p*ss out of what i said last month?

 

[kenada_blue]

There are plenty of flair players in the championship now in the past few years that haven't been on the end of a reducer that ruined their career.

Wifred Zaha for Palace springs to mind. All step overs and flair, gets a kicking, but he's not been axed and suffered career ending injuries.

It's a bit snobbish to say the championship is full of tough tackling louts. It's a tough league with very good footballing teams that's got less physical, big, strong athletic players than the premiership.

You learn by playing games. Barkley needs games and the less he players, the slower he develops.