Sam Allardyce

[Abraders]

Like we never did that under Moyes or Koeman?
We spent 3+ seasons smashing it to Fellaini.

You're so short sighted, or cherry picking to suit your argument, if you think that is how we are always going to play.

We hoof balled the entirety of Koemans tenure as well

 

[Deckard2049]

Whilst i agree with a lot of what you say, prior to Sams appointment, our form both home and away was woeful.

Don't forget he has managed to make our team alot harder to beat since he came here less than a month ago.

The first thing he had to concentrate on is to make us hard to beat, and in 29 days, he has succeeded. Which , quite frankly is amazing, if you consider what was happening defensively before he arrived.

Everyone who wants us playing like Barcelona or Man City after 29 days and with the same squad that Koeman and Unsy had , is quite frankly, delusional.

This is the issue though mate- people defending Allardyce are taking it to the extreme and stating that his critics are (as you say) expecting Barcelona style football- I honestly haven’t seen anyone saying that (correct me if I’m wrong).

People, including myself, are rightly frustrated at the way we set up and played against West Brom. And generally the football we’ve played has been quite atrocious. We look at times like we can’t string a passing move together and the general hoofball is getting tiring. Far worse teams all around the world than Barcelona or City are able to play some decent football.

The fact is that he has never won anything as a manager utilising his tactics and has never reached the champions league either. I appreciate that he’s made us hard to beat- Koeman and Unsworth didn’t manage it so fair play to him. But you don’t break the top 6 by drawing against the 19th placed side in the league. And crucially, which is what I think people who are acclaiming his results are missing, is you sure as hell don’t target a draw from that game. If West Brom had parked the bus and we just couldn’t break them down, then a point is fair enough. We seemed to set up for and play for that point; probably hoping for a defensive error from them or a set piece chance to maybe knick it. That’s not good management. It’s negative, defensive management and to be honest, quite cowardly. Like I said in my original post, pragmatism is great in certain matches, but West Brom was not one of those games.

I’ve used this as an example before but I think it’s pertinent here- in the FA Cup next week, if we go 1-0 down, do you see Sam having a viable solution to that from open play? And not relying on a brain fart from Lovren again to gift us an equalising penalty? That’s literally the only thing left to bother about this season but I’m seriously concerned we’re just exiting that competition with a whimper.

 

[Lord Buckethead]

We hoof balled the entirety of Koemans tenure as well

I think you will find that was shexy Dutch directness, it's only 'Hoofball' when Sam's teams do it.

 

[jceverton]

...apparently he had a word with the players before the game. I'm guessing on the evidence so far it must have been: "Do what you like tonight, but from then on we dont cross the half way line".

lol lol The proof was right there against Huddersfield, slow and sluggish before beating a team that couldn’t score away from home. I’m under no illusion that if he’d have come in straight after Koeman he’d have struggled for several games. Instead he came into a side that had balance for first time this season, confidence from a 4-0 Win and a run of fixtures against mainly out of form bottom six teams.

 

[boris]

So you wouldn't take him in front of Williams or Jags then?

No and I don't rate either of them. I wouldn't necessarily take him ahead of Holgate either or Funes Mori.

Our defenders are starting to look decent now in a team were the whole team is geared up to defend, not just the defence, and that's exactly how it is at Burnley.

The point was that burnley don't really have 1 player that would get in our first 11. The fact that Ben Mee is the only name being put forward and he was classed as 2nd to Keane last year only strengthens the point of our squad being capable of finishing above there's. Which they will do IMO.

 

[bluestevon]

Basically you're blaming the Koeman/Walsh axis for messing up the opportunities in the summer, and you're right.
Sam has done well to get the defence actually defending as a unit,they were like half a dozen rabbits in separate headlights under Koeman.
Sam would always have been able to do this, he's actually a good common sense manager from the old school, and no one is better at pragmatism and playing percentages. Just what we need...a period of 'back to basics' stability. I think that just by playing up to standard we have a shot at Europe for next season and I think that a season in Europe with Everton will be Sams last hurrah, and this is what he is aiming for.
If we get to March in the position we are in now, or slightly better, we will more attack minded if it means a Europa place is possible.

Thing is mate, are we defending better - well the stats show that we are, although we have faced in the last 6 games arguably 4 of the worst attacking teams in the league in Newcastle (19 in 20) Huddersfield (18 in 20) - Swansea (11 in 20) and West Brom (14 in 20)

thats the 20th, 19th, joint 17th, joint 16th and 13th teams on goals scored. which does put a bit of perspective on the clean sheets we've earned a little bit - and there was good fortune in 3 of those 4 games in terms of missed sitters and the woodwork saving us.

As for against the two attacks which genuinely are good ones we have faced - the rs and Chelsea, we rode our luck in both of those as well, and save for a moments of stupidity by Mane not squaring it for a simple tap in, we'd have conceded 2 in a matter of a couple of minutes - which would have tested this new found confidence and would have been very reminiscent of the way we collapsed against United and several other times this season after conceding, the team showed in that United game for 70 odd minutes it could keep a dangerous team out and look resolute, they showed similar against City early season before confidence tanked as well, Sam hasn't reinvented the wheel here, the players alre4ady had the ability to defend like this, and have showed it at times, he has just benefited from a lot of luck, a kind set of 4 out of 6 games against utter dross attack wise and by going ultra defensive in 4 out of 6 games - two of those against crap teams away, in fact we played quite defensive i9n both the other games as well for 50-60 minutes.

My problem is, people seem to think that we had no choice but to be saved by Allardyce, when in reality the situation was nowhere as near bad as people panicking thought, and a lot of middle of the road managers could have done exactly the same, and a lot could have brought a lot more to the table going forwards than this bloke does, only we handled the manager search like a team that has never changed a manager mid season before...

 

[bluestevon]

So what your saying then is " our players finally pulled their fingers out , knowing that our new manager was in the stands watching them", and Allerdyce had nothing to do with it?

Erm..... who was that new manager sitting in the stand then?

It could have been any manager that is the point mate, the salient point was that they knew we actually now had a permanent manager who would decide their futures at the club

 

[matty1878]

Thing is mate, are we defending better - well the stats show that we are, although we have faced in the last 6 games arguably 4 of the worst attacking teams in the league in Newcastle (19 in 20) Huddersfield (18 in 20) - Swansea (11 in 20) and West Brom (14 in 20)

thats the 20th, 19th, joint 17th, joint 16th and 13th teams on goals scored. which does put a bit of perspective on the clean sheets we've earned a little bit - and there was good fortune in 3 of those 4 games in terms of missed sitters and the woodwork saving us.

As for against the two attacks which genuinely are good ones we have faced - the rs and Chelsea, we rode our luck in both of those as well, and save for a moments of stupidity by Mane not squaring it for a simple tap in, we'd have conceded 2 in a matter of a couple of minutes - which would have tested this new found confidence and would have been very reminiscent of the way we collapsed against United and several other times this season after conceding, the team showed in that United game for 70 odd minutes it could keep a dangerous team out and look resolute, they showed similar against City early season before confidence tanked as well, Sam hasn't reinvented the wheel here, the players alre4ady had the ability to defend like this, and have showed it at times, he has just benefited from a lot of luck, a kind set of 4 out of 6 games against utter dross attack wise and by going ultra defensive in 4 out of 6 games - two of those against crap teams away, in fact we played quite defensive i9n both the other games as well for 50-60 minutes.

My problem is, people seem to think that we had no choice but to be saved by Allardyce, when in reality the situation was nowhere as near bad as people panicking thought, and a lot of middle of the road managers could have done exactly the same, and a lot could have brought a lot more to the table going forwards than this bloke does, only we handled the manager search like a team that has never changed a manager mid season before...

A week tomorrow all the Sam worshipers will be calling him all kinds when we’re 3 down by half time and no game plan.

 

[bluestevon]

No and I don't rate either of them. I wouldn't necessarily take him ahead of Holgate either or Funes Mori.

Our defenders are starting to look decent now in a team were the whole team is geared up to defend, not just the defence, and that's exactly how it is at Burnley.

The point was that burnley don't really have 1 player that would get in our first 11. The fact that Ben Mee is the only name being put forward and he was classed as 2nd to Keane last year only strengthens the point of our squad being capable of finishing above there's. Which they will do IMO.

Move our centre backs twenty yards further forwards and you will see exactly how much they have been improved by the new manager mate, my guess is that is exactly why you are not seeing them further forwards.

 

[trueblue10]

This is the issue though mate- people defending Allardyce are taking it to the extreme and stating that his critics are (as you say) expecting Barcelona style football- I honestly haven’t seen anyone saying that (correct me if I’m wrong).

People, including myself, are rightly frustrated at the way we set up and played against West Brom. And generally the football we’ve played has been quite atrocious. We look at times like we can’t string a passing move together and the general hoofball is getting tiring. Far worse teams all around the world than Barcelona or City are able to play some decent football.

The fact is that he has never won anything as a manager utilising his tactics and has never reached the champions league either. I appreciate that he’s made us hard to beat- Koeman and Unsworth didn’t manage it so fair play to him. But you don’t break the top 6 by drawing against the 19th placed side in the league. And crucially, which is what I think people who are acclaiming his results are missing, is you sure as hell don’t target a draw from that game. If West Brom had parked the bus and we just couldn’t break them down, then a point is fair enough. We seemed to set up for and play for that point; probably hoping for a defensive error from them or a set piece chance to maybe knick it. That’s not good management. It’s negative, defensive management and to be honest, quite cowardly. Like I said in my original post, pragmatism is great in certain matches, but West Brom was not one of those games.

I’ve used this as an example before but I think it’s pertinent here- in the FA Cup next week, if we go 1-0 down, do you see Sam having a viable solution to that from open play? And not relying on a brain fart from Lovren again to gift us an equalising penalty? That’s literally the only thing left to bother about this season but I’m seriously concerned we’re just exiting that competition with a whimper.

I agree with lots that you say, yes the football is crap but if we cant string 3 passes together what other options do we have at the moment?

How would you set up against them in the cup?

Keep it tight and hope to get them back for a replay?

Keep it tight and hope to nick a 1-0?

Try and take the game to them?

I havent got the answer, i'd like nothing more to go and have a go next week, i just don't think we have the personel to that at the moment.

In fact i dont think we have the personel to go out and take the game to anybody right now.

Just my opinion.

 

[matty1878]

Koeman was crap from the off. We were simply best of the rest last season. We barely played well all season, even the City game it was a case of our chances went in and theirs didn't. Certainly didn't have a game plan or style that you knew the players understood. We had a decent (not great) 3 month period from Jan-March where everything was going through Barkley, who was playing very well at the time.


We won't always be playing 5 at the back against the likes of WBA, and if you believe that is what we will always do under Allardyce I can only presume you are being purposefully short-sighted. If you genuinely think that this what Allardyce always does long term, then you haven't watched his teams over the years, and are basing your opinion on something other than actual results, performances and setups from his sides.

But then that doesn't match the narrative against him, does it?

You think allardayce can and does play any other way? lol behave he’s a stop gap and that’s it. If anyone even thinks he should be here longer than he needs to ( end of season ) you can kiss goodbye to anything ever again

 

[nsno-chris]

Do you really think there will be no evolution from this in the coming months?
Wait until we get a striker or two and Sam has had chance to work on going forward properly.
He's stopped the rot at the back, but there is limited breathing space with a game every 3-4 days to get any training done at the moment.

Yes I do, he’s never evolved. All the striker will do is hold up play while a couple of midfielders get up in support.

His entire philosophy is to lump it forward and pick up second balls. He’s done it for 20 years

 

[nsno-chris]

Like we never did that under Moyes or Koeman?
We spent 3+ seasons smashing it to Fellaini.

You're so short sighted, or cherry picking to suit your argument, if you think that is how we are always going to play.

And like I’ve said in the past, Moyes was 3 years past his sell by date. We actually played some good togger under Moyes.

But yay big Sam the saviour. Beats relegation candidates and scrapes draws by the skin of his teeth. Kneel before him.

Lol

 

[bluestevon]

A week tomorrow all the Sam worshipers will be calling him all kinds when we’re 3 down by half time and no game plan.

Got Bournemouth away before that, who have scored a whopping 18 in 20 and Man United at home - who have been derided for playing negative football this season, wonder how both those games will go in terms of who sits in their own box - my guess is you'd make a lot of money by betting on it being us and us being massively out-shot and with about 40% possession tops in both games.

As for the Derby, IF we play the same way exactly and hope for the same fortune that saw Mane miss the easiest pass for a tap in ever and a very fortuitous cock up and pen by Lovren then we will get bummed. Have to at least show 'some' attacking intent throughout a 90 min game in a Derby and a FA Cup Derby to boot.

 

[Jeff Jones]

Yeah, hoofing it 80 yards and picking up the scraps is pragmatic. So much so that Wimbledon won the cup with it in the 80’s

Well, there yer go.