deipnosophist
Player Valuation: £80m
I agree with @davek with regard to knee jerk over response to current dystopia: I disagree with @davek[/ USER] that we are flailing headless chickens because we are voicing concern
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Ashtonian
Banned on request
the thing is most of the logical critism about our current situation is not based on simply a run of defeats but a mirror image of our managers previous job where it ended up in relegation and leaking goals. In fact his last season there he also went through a defensive injury crisis and sent the team out much like he is doing now and hoping to beat the other team before they beat wigan.
time will tell whether the naysayers now are right in being worried but i will say inbetween the knee jerkers there are genuine worried fans who are basing their worry on logic and not blind faith as others may be.
deipnosophist
Player Valuation: £80m
I am in your camp mate. Fundamentalism is not my gig...
kithnou
Player Valuation: £70m
look my man, I was totally against Roberto Martinez as Everton Manager when Moyes left. I didn't think he was good enough after getting Wigan relegated. But after last season, to have people in here ask for his sacking and bring any rubbish Manager in just because he is English will mean, for me, maybe another decade or so of nothingness. The best chance we have to break out of this 30 years of mediocrity is to get a Continental Manager and back him to bring in the right players from around the world to play in, and be able to execute, a winning system.
I would rather get rid of the average skilled, mediocre footballers at the Club first who won't get us above mid-table before I get rid of Martinez.
He must be backed in unless we look like we may go down. We are not there yet.
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davek
Player Valuation: £150m
We're 13th, not 17th.
Season 2002/03: 26 games played 26 points
Season 2005/06: 20 games played 20 points
Season 2009/10: 20 games played 23 points
Season 2010/11: 21 games played 22 points
Season 2014/15: 20 games played 21 points
In all but one of those four completed seasons we finished inside the top 8.
Calm down.
Ashtonian
Banned on request
Differing opinions all round mate. what you say is right and i agree with that sentiment. Bottom 3 and a run of defeats by the middle of marhc would you still say he needs to be backed or would a 5 point gap to 17th be the turning point in your mind set?
i want to back martinez myself. I back his 5 year plan and i want him to get better here, he is so close to turning that corner and being able to really develop into a great manager. however where you say get rid of the players who are past it, well alcaraz and barry were signed by him and disitn is going anyway this season. leaves osman and hibbert as seniors and hibbert has done little harm this year.
Ashtonian
Banned on request
calm down? read my post again and see that i am not offering opinion on it but simply saying there are genuine worried fans and there are knee jerkers, as well as people basing support for him on blind faith and those who have reasoning. Point is not every martinez out fan is a knee jerker and not every supporter of him is basing it on blind faith which is the point i was trying to get accross.
My own personal opinion on him is wait until march and see where we are then.
kithnou
Player Valuation: £70m
If we are in the bottom 3 in March then I will be very surprised and won't be bothered either way. I don't think it will come to that though. A couple of wins in succession and we are away from danger.
You back his 5 year plan but you also have to try and have a vision of who will be around in 5 years when we are hopefully challenging for Europe consistently. All those names you mention won't be around. Nor will duds like McGeady, Atsu and average performers like Naismith from this year's squad.
But if you get in another poor, recycled English Manager with an aim to do a Moyes every year for a decade and aspire to mid table finishes...then I would rather go down with big dreams and visions than die a slow death which we have been doing pretty much since this Board took control of the Club
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
Yes, and I was addressing that for you.
You were saying you were trying to steer a path between each of those 'extreme' views - suggesting they were equally unscientific as each other: I provided you some stats to persuade you that that perception is not right and that now is not the time to view things as anything other than a slide that we've been through many times before...and under a manager who seems to have the reputation of being a safe manager to have had. Well that is probably true, he was. And his record at the halfway point of the season is no better or worse than Martinez in those highlighted seasons.
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Toffeelover
Player Valuation: £80m
When you look at our forthcoming 7 fixtures where do you think a couple of consecutive wins are going to come from?
What if the clubs below us mange to pick up a few points then the gap gets closer!
Toffeelover
Player Valuation: £80m
How about filling in the stats for the missing seasons to give a balanced view and not a slanted one..
So just to clarify. If you were the chairman after 5 games when we had won 1, drawn 2, lost 2 and beat Wolfsburg in between, you would have pulled the manager up to say "I know we are only 5 games in but I'm gonna give you until Christmas to turn this 2 draws and 2 defeats, 1 win and a EL win around, forget about last season as that doesn't count now and if we are still struggling then we will sack you. Is that what you were getting at mate?
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
Well I could do that, and I could also give the stats for RM's first half of his first season, but where would that get us other than at the same point we started at: that both managers are capable of good and bad first half of the seasons, but (and here's the real point) only one is perceived as being capable of putting us in danger.
Foot Long Hot Dog
Player Valuation: A packet of pork scratchings
The reason only one of them is perceived as being capable of putting us in REAL danger, is that he was form for it and for all the World it looked like we were sleep walking into a relegation battle after the Christmas results.
In a battle of that nature would you trust the pragmatist or the philosopher???
In a battle of that nature would you trust the pragmatist or the philosopher???
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
He wasn't at a club with this amount of talent with Wigan was he? You're comparing apples and pears. All you can do is compare like for like...which is what I did.
In any case, this attack has been going on for weeks before we were in this position and the panic button was being hit. The implication is clear: there's some people who have been chomping at the bit to unseat Martinez from day one (and we all know who they are on here). They've been largely responsible for agitating others to the point of hysteria to start panicking over 'a relegation dogfight'.
Well, statistically that doesn't hold water.....I apologise for using mere facts and not the usual anecdotal conjecture.
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