Stadium Thread - ALL Kirkby/Stadium Discussion Here

[davek]

Like I said, anything substancial, viable -- something to make them go "hold on, lets take a look". The inquiry is the only thing they could do eventually or want, to make an impact, to actually change things, to be heard.

I'm not having a go at what KEIOC have done (although they've been prone to some very cheap digs), they've done what they can (even though they'd do anything to, as the name suggest keep Everton in the city). All I said that they havent done or found anything to change things drastically to stop anything, and neither have LCC. Stuff like the Loop site has already been brought up and looked into, apprantly, and its not viable -- that's what's been said, and the same with the others mentioned (like they've never looked into refurbishing GP?).

But again, like I've mentioned, the enquiry is still going on so more info will come to light (like the other 30 odd locations), so those alternatives arent fully dead in the water till it continutes.

The club have said they have a budget for a stadium move, anything else has to meet that budget. Sadly, nothing has, apparantly.

It all comes down to the will to look at alternatives, they've all been prejudged by Everton as 'not deliverable' (they never even asked for the HOK report for the Loop site, that's how arsed they are about looking at things seriously). When they have run the rule over alternatives the've used the same two companies - Savills and KSS - to analyse them....the two companies who stand to gain from the Kirkby stadium build. How serious is that being toward alternatives?

A lot has been achieved by KEIOC to present a balance between kirkby and sites in Liverpool. That's all they can do, they cant and shouldn't be expected to put every single aspect of an alternative stadium under the noses of the club and deliver every penny...afterall, it's not something that Tesco/Knowsley are doing either.

 

[Makis]

Like I said, anything substancial, viable -- something to make them go "hold on, lets take a look". The inquiry is the only thing they could do eventually or want, to make an impact, to actually change things, to be heard.

Trouble is, the club isn't listening. Several sources have told they have been stonewalled or ignored. LCC said Everton never got in contact despite numerous attempts, Wyness came up with the "Loop can't hold a 70,000 stadium" lie and even though Kenwright promised to talk with Skempton, he never has.

 

[kenada_blue]

It all comes down to the will to look at alternatives, they've all been prejudged by Everton as 'not deliverable' (they never even asked for the HOK report for the Loop site, that's how arsed they are about looking at things seriously). When they have run the rule over alternatives the've used the same two companies - Savills and KSS - to analyse them....the two companies who stand to gain from the Kirkby stadium build. How serious is that being toward alternatives?

A lot has been achieved by KEIOC to present a balance between kirkby and sites in Liverpool. That's all they can do, they cant and shouldn't be expected to put every single aspect of an alternative stadium under the noses of the club and deliver every penny...afterall, it's not something that Tesco/Knowsley are doing either.

I agree with you.

But I think that's what its gonna take to answer Ghost's question of someone trying to stop it.

And so the only thing that's gonna stop it, like you've mentioned plenty of times dave, is the planning policies and laws the government will believe the move and build breaks.

 

[kenada_blue]

Trouble is, the club isn't listening. Several sources have told they have been stonewalled or ignored. LCC said Everton never got in contact despite numerous attempts, Wyness came up with the "Loop can't hold a 70,000 stadium" lie and even though Kenwright promised to talk with Skempton, he never has.

What about the cross-examination of that feller the other day who answered they questions regarding the loop etc and said they wouldnt work?

EFC have been looking for a new stadium for 10 years. Now, if they've been stonewalling people for 10 years, that's a no-no. But if they havent (LCC have proposed moves outside the city themselves), maybe the people being stonewalled havent tried hard enough or jumped in late when EFC are all set to go with one project -- you never know which is what the enquiry might bring to light as it goes on.

 

[Makis]

What about the cross-examination of that feller the other day who answered they questions regarding the loop etc and said they wouldnt work?

Sorry, I must have missed this one. Who was it? Hopefully not one of the
companies that stand to profit from the Kirkby project?

EFC have been looking for a new stadium for 10 years. Now, if they've been stonewalling people for 10 years, that's a no-no. But if they havent (LCC have proposed moves outside the city themselves), maybe the people being stonewalled havent tried hard enough or jumped in late when EFC are all set to go with one project -- you never know which is what the enquiry might bring to light as it goes on.

I would think the club would at least show some initiative. If a fan like Skempton has drawn up plans for GP wouldn't it be courteous from the club to at least talk to him? Must Skempton twist someones arm to get an audience?

And just a reminder: Skempton is one of the top architects in the country, not just an ordinary fan.

 

[kenada_blue]

Sorry, I must have missed this one. Who was it? Hopefully not one of the
companies that stand to profit from the Kirkby project?


I would think the club would at least show some initiative. If a fan like Skempton has drawn up plans for GP wouldn't it be courteous from the club to at least talk to him? Must Skempton twist someones arm to get an audience?

And just a reminder: Skempton is one of the top architects in the country, not just an ordinary fan.

Because he's working for them he knows nothing? IE take with a pinch of salt (but everything KEIOC say or LCC is 100% fact on the other hand and should be taken as the truth). Any company working on the project, any project, is going to make a profit from it, aint they? They don't do it for free. Isnt the man working on the project going to know more than someone not working on the project?

As for Skempton -- hopefully the enquiry will bring it up. Was it brought up in the cross examination? Architect to architect? Why not? I dont know all the details about it, but when did Skempton drew up the plans? Before or after EFC went to bed with Tesco? And did a cost come into it? If EFC already had a calculation on how much it would cost, Skempton's plans might've just not been worthwhile looking into if they roughly met the same price. Just throwing up questions really, not putting down peoples facts etc.

 

[Makis]

Because he's working for them he knows nothing? IE take with a pinch of salt (but everything KEIOC say or LCC is 100% fact on the other hand and should be taken as the truth). Any company working on the project, any project, is going to make a profit from it, aint they? They don't do it for free. Isnt the man working on the project going to know more than someone not working on the project?

Um, if you ask a car dealer for a recommendation, do you think he will suggest a model he isn't selling?

As for Skempton -- hopefully the enquiry will bring it up. Was it brought up in the cross examination? Architect to architect? Why not? I dont know all the details about it, but when did Skempton drew up the plans? Before or after EFC went to bed with Tesco? And did a cost come into it? If EFC already had a calculation on how much it would cost, Skempton's plans might've just not been worthwhile looking into if they roughly met the same price. Just throwing up questions really, not putting down peoples facts etc.

Really, if the guy who redesigned Twickenham and SJP draws up plans for free, don't you think it would be at least worth sitting down with him for a few hours?

 

[chicoazul]

Im caught in two minds here.

Kenada_blue does have a lot of good points, like its all well and good but where is the funding. The timing of this suggests its another "muddy the water" tactic to get people against Kirkby perhaps.

But then from a KEIOC standpoint, theyve put loads of effort into finding suitable alternatives constructively (with a reknown architect as Makis points out) with what I would consider a superb alternative in the Clarence Dock. One again though, theres no way we could get the funding for it without Tescos involvement.

I'll just sit on the fence some more.

 

[kenada_blue]

Um, if you ask a car dealer for a recommendation, do you think he will suggest a model he isn't selling?


Really, if the guy who redesigned Twickenham and SJP draws up plans for free, don't you think it would be at least worth sitting down with him for a few hours?

Then why call the car salesman at all if your not willing to buy from him or take his advice? Doesnt make sense. The opposition are asking questions to find answers and information -- who else they going to ask? You? Me? No, they ask the guy involved in the project because, rightly or wrongly, he knows about it. If youre taking his answers with a pinch of salt, then maybe KEIOC and LCC et all have enough info to pull him up.....but what if they dont? What if what he's saying is genuine? We'll have to wait till the end of the enquiry.

And I agree about the Skempton thing. I'd have sat down with him, many would and the club should've sat down with him. But maybe it was all about timing. Maybe we already made are bed with Tesco's before he drew up his plans (which I asked if anyone knew if he did or not). Maybe that Tesco deal was tied up tighter than a dolphins arse, was affordable and deliverable when they did their estimations etc. That's business (who's running it which is another discussion all together). Then knowing how much redeveloping GP would cost, maybe they didnt want to entertain the idea from anyone. Again, maybe's.

 

[Makis]

Then why call the car salesman at all if your not willing to buy from him or take his advice?

Let's put it this way: if someone goes to a Volvo dealer (and no-one else) and ask for a recommendation, would you think he has already made his mind up about the make of the car?

 

[kenada_blue]

Let's put it this way: if someone goes to a Volvo dealer (and no-one else) and ask for a recommendation, would you think he has already made his mind up about the make of the car?

Maybe I'm being stupid, but I dont understand what you mean. Do you mean, the feller who was cross examined (in work so I can't spend time searching for his name on the sly haha) is going to sell the idea because he's going to make money, he's working for the club, so dont believe him, right?

All I'm saying is....who else can you believe unless what he's said has been pulled up? Which, like I've said, could happen as the enquiry continues. But so far, from what's been released, he answered every question thrown at him.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

Regarding the design, interesting to contrast views;

http://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/news-updates/1737-poll-new-stadium-design-vote-now.html

 

[Sharpys top lip]

I hate Kirkby, theirs no way i want to go to that [Poor language removed] hole. Plus the ground looks [Poor language removed] to.

But.................

What other choice do we have. We had a vote wich came out i favour of he 'YES' vote (no matter how you butter it up). An were [Poor language removed] skint. to the point we can't buy player never mind fund a £500m project. What the [Poor language removed] are we going to do...?

The one thing that is certin, is we need to move ........NOW!!


Looks like [Poor language removed] hole Kirkby wins!!

 

[davek]

Regarding the design, interesting to contrast views;

http://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/news-updates/1737-poll-new-stadium-design-vote-now.html

I think those results would have been replicated across other Everton forae during the ballot period too. The images had just been released and the major issue wasn't about what it looked like but where it was and how it could improve revenue by being further away from the club's core support.

As facts have emerged over time: regarding revenue from such a move; exactly how much this thing was costing the club; how people would get to and from the new location, then the design has come into sharper focus...helped greatly, btw, by the admission of those responsible for creating it that'll be a basic and limited quality of design.

Regardless of all that, though, even back then in July 07, if you'd have asked people whether they thought the Kings Dock stadium was a better or worse design to Barr's Stadium in Kirkby there'd have been no contest.

 

[Nebbiolo]

I hate Kirkby, theirs no way i want to go to that [Poor language removed] hole. Plus the ground looks [Poor language removed] to.

But.................

What other choice do we have. We had a vote wich came out i favour of he 'YES' vote (no matter how you butter it up). An were [Poor language removed] skint. to the point we can't buy player never mind fund a £500m project. What the [Poor language removed] are we going to do...?

The one thing that is certin, is we need to move ........NOW!!


Looks like [Poor language removed] hole Kirkby wins!!

Quite correct, mate. Apart from the last bit.