The David Moyes debate

[Philw]

As was said earlier by somebody else.

He took over a Wigan side who where fighting relagation every Season and turned them into a side, that, erm, fights relagation every Season.

Yeah, hes fcking amazing.

So basically the team is in the same position as before, but play nicer football? Well that would fit the bill for me. Thanks for your approval!

MORE from the Brennan91 GOT HALL OF SHAME

http://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/t...months-ago-when-certain-posters-were-laughing

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17606949
As of 17th April 2012

1 Man Utd 33 50 79
2 Man City 33 53 74
3 Arsenal 33 25 64
4 Tottenham 33 19 59
5 Newcastle 33 8 59
6 Chelsea 33 18 57
7 Everton 33 4 47
8 Liverpool 33 4 46
9 Fulham 33 0 43
10 Norwich 33 -6 43
11 Sunderland 33 1 42
12 Stoke 33 -13 42
13 West Brom 33 -8 39
14 Swansea 33 -9 39
15 Aston Villa 32 -9 35
16 QPR 33 -18 31
17 Wigan 33 -26 31
18 Bolton 32 -29 29
19 Blackburn 33 -25 28
20 Wolves 33 -39 22

YOU WHAT LAD?

I think you agree don't you?

The League Table never lies.

The league table tells me we're only 4 points above Fulham and Norwich, and 5 above Sunderland/Stoke. But Moyes is a much better manager than any of their's isn't he???

There's more kneejerkers on this forum than Dr Richard Steadman's surgery. FFS.

Kenada_blue and Brennan91. In particular.

Just chin them lad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Steadman

Brennan91 - Biggest kneejerker on GOT.

http://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/threads/42883-Dear-David

He changes his views on the manager more than he changes his socks.

You've got nothing on Goat lad. Nothing. He'll eat you for breakfast.

I wouldn't say it's completely irrelevant.

It shows your judgement on football matters takes alot to be desired lad.

Remember:

BARKLEY'S EXPLODING KNEES (Wilshire has been out for the entire season; too much football too soon)

At least we're not Villa! (Who lost £52million last season on the books; are close to relegation).

http://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/t...nks-Everton-are-part-of-the-relegation-battle

So lets get this straight. Martinez is now boss whilst he was rubbish a month ago.

And Moyes is now ****e and he was boss a week ago?

Kneejerking all over the shop there Brennan91.

You only have to go back 5 pages to see the evidence.

Oh and you were stating Moyes was ruining Jelavic.

Yes he ruined him. He's obviously ruined him in the past few weeks. ... in a "bizarro" world.

All the evidence needed is in this thread.

Also how you were saying Martinez was rubbish. Now he's the best thing since sliced bread to you.

Flip flop. Flip flop. Flip flop.

Lol, Damo you're so funny. You should do stand up...

Some Serious questions now-

1) For the money we've spent do you think we have a strong squad? Ish

2) What league position does our squad warrant? 6/7th

3) How many players are we missing to challenge the top 4? Depends if you include Pienaar, and how Barkley progresses next year. 3/4 with those two, 5/6 without.

So basically a quick consensus is that with the money spent we are pretty much at the level we should be and on average 4 players to get up to where we want to be?!

The only way we are ever going to do that is with new ownership/investment, I think you hooded assassins are venting at the wrong villain here. People feel like they need a change and can't touch kenwright so go after Moyes?!

I've said it earlier and I'll say again- we played some wonderful stuff with the midget gems if arteta, Pienaar and Osman based on a solid back line.

We need money, that's it. I don't understand why people would risk a change when we are pretty much where we deserve to be with the money that's been invested.

1. Yes but the lower end of where we could expect to be, and we've had the opportunity to do better, and Moyes has missed it time and time again.
2. Kenwright is going nowhere. A change is needed. Moyes isn't making the best out of the (admittedly not ideal) situation he is in. Do the math.

...

Then as top players move on he WILL NOT sign the right calibre of player to keep us in the top 8. Thinking he would somehow will pick up where Moyes would be leaving off is wishful thinking to say the least. Moyes is treading water and he is far superior to Martinez.

I can't have anyone saying Wigan were in a worse state in 09 than we were when Moyes took over either. We were SO gash when Moyes took over it's untrue. Think of what people say about Smith's days. Dire. There is no way we were better than what Wigan were when Martinez took over. Yet, at the same stage as Martinez's career at Wigan, Moyes was boxing off a top 4 finish. With no money, zero club attractiveness and having to sell the most talented English player in decades. There isn't a case you could make for Martinez to take this job, in any way shape or form..

1. How can you possibly know that would be the case?
2. Moyes already had the likes of Yobo, Martyn, Mcfadden, Kilbane, and Graveson/Campbell (for half the season) and then brought in Cahill, Arteta (swap for Graveson) and Beattie. Think that's probably somewhat better than what Martinez has to work with, and the loss of Rooney, while he was a great talent wouldn't have been as detrimental as losing the players Martinez has since he arrived.

 

[paulbefc]

So basically the team is in the same position as before, but play nicer football? Well that would fit the bill for me. Thanks for your approval!





The league table tells me we're only 4 points above Fulham and Norwich, and 5 above Sunderland/Stoke. But Moyes is a much better manager than any of their's isn't he???













Lol, Damo you're so funny. You should do stand up...




1. Yes but the lower end of where we could expect to be, and we've had the opportunity to do better, and Moyes has missed it time and time again.
2. Kenwright is going nowhere. A change is needed. Moyes isn't making the best out of the (admittedly not ideal) situation he is in. Do the math.



1. How can you possibly know that would be the case?
2. Moyes already had the likes of Yobo, Martyn, Mcfadden, Kilbane, and Graveson/Campbell (for half the season) and then brought in Cahill, Arteta (swap for Graveson) and Beattie. Think that's probably somewhat better than what Martinez has to work with, and the loss of Rooney, while he was a great talent wouldn't have been as detrimental as losing the players Martinez has since he arrived.

How many managers have as good or better record in the transfer market as Moyes in the last 10 years? Then look at Martinez's record.

Not sure what you mean by the second part. I was saying that Moyes had it no better than Martinez when he took over. As you've pointed out, he then made some superb transfers such as Yobo, Cahill, Martyn, Bent, Arteta and that's why we finished 4th. Losing Rooney devastated everyone at the club. He is and was twice the player Zog, Palacios and Valencia have ever been. Let's remember that Gravesen also left us when he was playing the best football of his entire career and had Real after him. Maybe if Martinez had managed a couple of higher finishes than 16th he'd have kept hold of the likes of those players. Like Moyes did Arteta. Under Moyes we have always held promise even if we haven't always delivered. Wigan have been nailed on bottom 5 since Martinez took over.

 

[Brennan]

How many managers have as good or better record in the transfer market as Moyes in the last 10 years? Then look at Martinez's record.

Not sure what you mean by the second part. I was saying that Moyes had it no better than Martinez when he took over. As you've pointed out, he then made some superb transfers such as Yobo, Cahill, Martyn, Bent, Arteta and that's why we finished 4th. Losing Rooney devastated everyone at the club. He is and was twice the player Zog, Palacios and Valencia have ever been. Let's remember that Gravesen also left us when he was playing the best football of his entire career and had Real after him. Maybe if Martinez had managed a couple of higher finishes than 16th he'd have kept hold of the likes of those players. Like Moyes did Arteta. Under Moyes we have always held promise even if we haven't always delivered. Wigan have been nailed on bottom 5 since Martinez took over.

Rubbish that.

The team Moyes inherited when he took over was much better than the team Wigan had when Martinez took over.

Moyes net spend over the first two seasons after he took over = £10m
Martinez net spend over the first two seasons after he took over = -£7m

And that was before Moyes had to sell any big talent, most of the outs during those first two seasons were either end of contract or nominal fees. Martinez lost Valencia, who had been instrumental in their high finish the season before.

 

[paulbefc]

Rubbish that.

The team Moyes inherited when he took over was much better than the team Wigan had when Martinez took over.

Moyes net spend over the first two seasons after he took over = £10m
Martinez net spend over the first two seasons after he took over = -£7m

And that was before Moyes had to sell any big talent, most of the outs during those first two seasons were either end of contract or nominal fees. Martinez lost Valencia, who had been instrumental in their high finish the season before.

I was referring to the squad he inherited rather than how much he spent, like. If you want to talk about net spend though, Wayne Rooney would be sold a few months outside that 2 year window you mentioned, for £27m which rose to £30m later, so going into the 04/05 season in which we finished fourth we had a net spend a net spend of £-15m.

 

[Philw]

How many managers have as good or better record in the transfer market as Moyes in the last 10 years? Then look at Martinez's record.

Not sure what you mean by the second part. I was saying that Moyes had it no better than Martinez when he took over. As you've pointed out, he then made some superb transfers such as Yobo, Cahill, Martyn, Bent, Arteta and that's why we finished 4th. Losing Rooney devastated everyone at the club. He is and was twice the player Zog, Palacios and Valencia have ever been. Let's remember that Gravesen also left us when he was playing the best football of his entire career and had Real after him. Maybe if Martinez had managed a couple of higher finishes than 16th he'd have kept hold of the likes of those players. Like Moyes did Arteta. Under Moyes we have always held promise even if we haven't always delivered. Wigan have been nailed on bottom 5 since Martinez took over.

Rooney was great, but I don't think back then you could claim he had the impact that those three players had for Wigan. And I mentioned Grav, but he was basically a straight swap for Arteta. As for Martinez' transfer record, even if I found out all the players he had bought/sold I couldn't analyse it very well as I don't follow them closely enough, and only really know the players ppl have already mentioned in the thread.

Rubbish that.

The team Moyes inherited when he took over was much better than the team Wigan had when Martinez took over.

Moyes net spend over the first two seasons after he took over = £10m
Martinez net spend over the first two seasons after he took over = -£7m

And that was before Moyes had to sell any big talent, most of the outs during those first two seasons were either end of contract or nominal fees. Martinez lost Valencia, who had been instrumental in their high finish the season before.

Exactly, even when Moyes lost Rooney he was able to re-invest the money, whereas Martinez hasn't been able to so much, so it is an unfair comparison.

 

[Brennan]

Exactly, even when Moyes lost Rooney he was able to re-invest the money, whereas Martinez hasn't been able to so much, so it is an unfair comparison.

Precisely. Rooney went for £27m and Moyes actually spent all of that in the transfer window that followed. Martinez's net spend is still negative after three seasons.

 

[Philw]

I was referring to the squad he inherited rather than how much he spent, like. If you want to talk about net spend though, Wayne Rooney would be sold a few months outside that 2 year window you mentioned, for £27m which rose to £30m later, so going into the 04/05 season in which we finished fourth we had a net spend a net spend of £-15m.

According to the OS Rooney was sold end of Aug 04....

 

[paulbefc]

According to the OS Rooney was sold end of Aug 04....

And Moyes joined in March/Apr 02....

 

[paulbefc]

Precisely. Rooney went for £27m and Moyes actually spent all of that in the transfer window that followed. Martinez's net spend is still negative after three seasons.

He certainly didn't spend close to all of it. And we'd qualified for the champions league. We got a big pay packet for that, by our standards. A lot of that money was earned on merit.

 

[paulbefc]

Rooney was great, but I don't think back then you could claim he had the impact that those three players had for Wigan. And I mentioned Grav, but he was basically a straight swap for Arteta. As for Martinez' transfer record, even if I found out all the players he had bought/sold I couldn't analyse it very well as I don't follow them closely enough, and only really know the players ppl have already mentioned in the thread.



Exactly, even when Moyes lost Rooney he was able to re-invest the money, whereas Martinez hasn't been able to so much, so it is an unfair comparison.

Sensational business by Moyes.

 

[Brennan]

He certainly didn't spend close to all of it. And we'd qualified for the champions league. We got a big pay packet for that, by our standards. A lot of that money was earned on merit.

Joleon Lescott £5,000,000
Andy Johnson £8,600,000
Van der Meyde £2,000,000
Nuno Valente £1,500,000
Phil Neville £3,500,000
Mikel Arteta £2,000,000
Per Kroldrup £5,000,000

£27.6m

 

[paulbefc]

Joleon Lescott £5,000,000
Andy Johnson £8,600,000
Van der Meyde £2,000,000
Nuno Valente £1,500,000
Phil Neville £3,500,000
Mikel Arteta £2,000,000
Per Kroldrup £5,000,000

£27.6m

Oh ffs I can't be bothered finding all the incoming fees for player sales (up to 2008) plus extra money generated by the CL and europa league run. Kind of silly to omit all that surely? And I was referring to the next transfer window. Not the nexts six. As were you: "Moyes actually spent all of that in the transfer window that followed"

 

[Brennan]

Oh ffs I can't be bothered finding all the incoming fees for player sales (up to 2008) plus extra money generated by the CL and europa league run. Kind of silly to omit all that surely?

Well Moyes sold £30m worth of players in the 2004/05 window, but he also BOUGHT £10m worth in that same window, taking the net spend to -£20m. So really he actually spent all of the Rooney money plus another £7m over that window and the window which followed (where he only sold £2.5m in Marcus Bent).

He then had a good net spend for the two transfer windows after that, it was only in 2009/10 that the negative spending became a continuous thing.

 

[Del]

I would say Martinez inherited a better team than Moyes IMO

 

[Brennan]

I would say Martinez inherited a better team than Moyes IMO

Fair enough. One thing which can't be debated though is that Martinez has not had the financial aid that Moyes had after he took over.

Martinez may never have had to sell two £20m+ players, but that also means he never had £40m+ to invest in players to strengthen the team overall.