The David Moyes debate

[paulbefc]

Well Moyes sold £30m worth of players in the 2004/05 window, but he also BOUGHT £10m worth in that same window, taking the net spend to -£20m. So really he actually spent all of the Rooney money plus another £7m over that window and the window which followed (where he only sold £2.5m in Marcus Bent).

He then had a good net spend for the two transfer windows after that, it was only in 2009/10 that the negative spending became a continuous thing.

Right, I looked in the end:

Bent 2.5m
Kroldrup £3m
Kilbane (undisclosed) £1m according to SSN
Simon Davies (undisclosed) £2.5m according to random site
Naysmith £1m
Beattie £4.5m
McFadden £6m

Adds up to around £19m. Add the big money we got from our 04/05 exploits and european jollies and we have very little money spent of that Rooney fee.

 

[paulbefc]

Right, I looked in the end:

Bent 2.5m
Kroldrup £3m
Kilbane (undisclosed) £1m according to SSN
Simon Davies (undisclosed) £2.5m according to random site
Naysmith £1m
Beattie £4.5m
McFadden £6m

Adds up to around £19m. Add the big money we got from our 04/05 exploits and european jollies and we have very little money spent of that Rooney fee.

We were massively in debt anyway, you know Bill, we didn't get [Poor language removed] all of it.

 

[Summerskin]

Just 'Koff Moist, and take your surface to air hoofballs with you.

 

[Del]

I want Neil Warnock

 

[Brennan]

Right, I looked in the end:

Bent 2.5m
Kroldrup £3m
Kilbane (undisclosed) £1m according to SSN
Simon Davies (undisclosed) £2.5m according to random site
Naysmith £1m
Beattie £4.5m
McFadden £6m

Adds up to around £19m. Add the big money we got from our 04/05 exploits and european jollies and we have very little money spent of that Rooney fee.

You don't get big money from Europe unless you get to the group stages of the Champions league.

And are they player sales ? A lot of those players weren't sold until a season or two after the Rooney money was spent...

 

[Fantoair]

Arteta

Did we not sign him from rangers

 

[paulbefc]

You don't get big money from Europe unless you get to the group stages of the Champions league.

And are they player sales ? A lot of those players weren't sold until a season or two after the Rooney money was spent...

Gah ffs. I knew I'd done something wrong. But yeah, still a small spend, really looking at the league finishes that had been achieved and were yet to be achieved.

And I recall Bill saying, relatively recently we got a decent amount from it in the end. Not group stage mega bucks but not a bad packet by our standards.

 

[Number_25]

Did we not sign him from rangers

I don't think anyone said we did?

 

[Brennan]

Gah ffs. I knew I'd done something wrong. But yeah, still a small spend, really looking at the league finishes that had been achieved and were yet to be achieved.

Yep, and i don't dismiss what Moyes did as anything other than brilliant in those early seasons. But when you compare his spending (he spent over £80m on players between 2004/05 and 2009/10) to Martinez's spending it's a joke to even try and make a point against Martinez not doing what Moyes did. Some posters have said Martinez could not be as good as Moyes, but there is zero proof to back that up really.

Even if it can be argued that the Wigan squad he inherited was stronger than the one Moyes did, the financial backing they received to improve them isn't even comparable. You allow Martinez to spend £80m on players over the next four seasons and i reckon Wigan would be just fine.

 

[paulbefc]

Yep, and i don't dismiss what Moyes did as anything other than brilliant in those early seasons. But when you compare his spending (he spent over £80m on players between 2004/05 and 2009/10) to Martinez's spending it's a joke to even try and make a point against Martinez not doing what Moyes did. Some posters have said Martinez could not be as good as Moyes, but there is zero proof to back that up really.

Even if it can be argued that the Wigan squad he inherited was stronger than the one Moyes did, the financial backing they received to improve them isn't even comparable. You allow Martinez to spend £80m on players over the next four seasons and i reckon Wigan would be just fine.

Looking at their transfer record, it's not that bad. They got a very big fee for what Zog was worth and Valencia was £16m but I never realised Palacios was sold a year before Martinez came in. So since he came in they've lost two quality players in Zog and Valencia. Bad times, but Rooney and Gravesen have got to equal that. In the three transfer windows they've always had money to spend thanks to those fees. They spent £6.7m on new players in 09/10, £9.1m in 10/11 and before this season they spent £8m. For the loss of two big players? Hardly devastating for them. Plenty of opportunity to put that right.

Here, we know as well as anyone that selling big players can work in your favour if you spend the money well. Martinez hasn't done that. Otherwise they'd be higher in the league. Unless it's because his tactics are poor and he can't get them playing enough? It's one or the other. Or both.

 

[Brennan]

Looking at their transfer record, it's not that bad. They got a very big fee for what Zog was worth and Valencia was £16m but I never realised Palacios was sold a year before Martinez came in. So since he came in they've lost two quality players in Zog and Valencia. Bad times, but Rooney and Gravesen have got to equal that. In the three transfer windows they've always had money to spend thanks to those fees. They spent £6.7m on new players in 09/10, £9.1m in 10/11 and before this season they spent £8m. For the loss of two big players? Hardly devastating for them. Plenty of opportunity to put that right.

Here, we know as well as anyone that selling big players can work in your favour if you spend the money well. Martinez hasn't done that. Otherwise they'd be higher in the league. Unless it's because his tactics are poor and he can't get them playing enough? It's one or the other. Or both.

Rooney was one player who was replaced with SEVEN players though, three of which were £5m or more. Wigan have only spent more than £4m once since Martinez took over, and it was on Boselli (Wigan's Bily).

In fact, other than £4m on Al Habsi the other transfers for Wigan have been super cheap.

The amount they've had to spend isn't comparable, and Martinez has done some great deals on buying cheap players like Moses, McCarthy, Di Santo, Caldwell and Diame.

The core of his squad has been put together for tuppence.

 

[paulbefc]

Rooney was one player who was replaced with SEVEN players though, three of which were £5m or more. Wigan have only spent more than £4m once since Martinez took over, and it was on Boselli (Wigan's Bily).

In fact, other than £4m on Al Habsi the other transfers for Wigan have been super cheap.

The amount they've had to spend isn't comparable, and Martinez has done some great deals on buying cheap players like Moses, McCarthy, Di Santo, Caldwell and Diame.

The core of his squad has been put together for tuppence.

It's not really spending big fees which makes you a good candidate for this job. That's a smaller requirement. It's the £1-3m deals which need to work here. Martinez has made a lot of signings with only Moses looking really shrewd. To say I'm sceptical about Martinez is an understatement but, tactics aside, as only Wigan fans will have a good idea on how good they are, the evidence suggests he's miles behind Moyes on the most important requirement for the job.

It's definitely not stupid to suggest that you can't compare the two managers' transfers. Martinez has made a lot since he came.

 

[Brennan]

It's not really spending big fees which makes you a good candidate for this job. That's a smaller requirement. It's the £1-3m deals which need to work here. Martinez has made a lot of signings with only Moses looking really shrewd. To say I'm sceptical about Martinez is an understatement but, tactics aside, as only Wigan fans will have a good idea on how good they are, the evidence suggests he's miles behind Moyes on the most important requirement for the job.

It's definitely not stupid to suggest that you can't compare the two managers' transfers. Martinez has made a lot since he came.

McCarthy
Di Santo
Diame
Moses
Caldwell

Were all great against Arsenal the other night, McCarthy has a bright future ahead of him and Martinez picked him up for next to nothing. It's also a lot more difficult to get players to come to a team like Wigan than a team like Everton, for obvious reasons.

Moyes' signings in the three seasons after he took over:

Yobo
Rodrigo
Richard Wright (£3.5m ffs)
Espen Baardsen
Li Tie
James McFadden
Marcus Bent
Nigel Martyn
Kevin Kilbane
Tim Cahill
Beattie
Plessis
John Ruddy
Simon Davies

Some good signings, but also some absolute shoite.

 

[paulbefc]

McCarthy
Di Santo
Diame
Moses
Caldwell

Were all great against Arsenal the other night, McCarthy has a bright future ahead of him and Martinez picked him up for next to nothing. It's also a lot more difficult to get players to come to a team like Wigan than a team like Everton, for obvious reasons.

Moyes' signings in the three seasons after he took over:

Yobo
Rodrigo
Richard Wright (£3.5m ffs)
Espen Baardsen
Li Tie
James McFadden
Marcus Bent
Nigel Martyn
Kevin Kilbane
Tim Cahill
Beattie
Plessis
John Ruddy
Simon Davies

Some good signings, but also some absolute shoite.

Caldwell is gash, mate. A few decent peformances don't change that. Di Santo has hardly set the world alight either. Anyway, if they're as good as the calibre Moyes signs then why are Wigan 16th in the league? Why were we finishing 4th when all we'd brought in was Bent and Cahill the summer before? It's either Martinez is nowhere near as good in the transfer market as Moyes or he's tactically the most naive manager in the prem. To be honest, I think it's a bit of both.

 

[Brennan]

Caldwell is gash, mate. A few decent peformances don't change that. Di Santo has hardly set the world alight either. Anyway, if they're as good as the calibre Moyes signs then why are Wigan 16th in the league? Why were we finishing 4th when all we'd brought in was Bent and Cahill the summer before? It's either Martinez is nowhere near as good in the transfer market as Moyes or he's tactically the most naive manager in the prem. To be honest, I think it's a bit of both.

I never said they were as good as what Moyes signs, but they're good considering the team and the money he has to spend. Players go to teams which they think are good enough for them, most players don't dream of signing for relegation battlers.

Moyes has signed some good cheap players, but he's signed plenty of crap too. Like i said, give Martinez the amount of money and a club with the same stature as Moyes has and then you can say he's rubbish. Until then, it's all just speculation.

Li Tie ffs. LI TIE.