The EU deal

[Cypher]

Something to think about for everybody. If we leave then a whole load of negotiations are going to be required. The Labour Party, such as it is, is split and there is no discernible leadership. Corbyn is doing nothing. The Tories are in an even worse state if that is possible and they are wrecked for years to come. Liberals again non-existent. Scots Nationalists will want another referendum if we leave. Politics in the UK is an absolute shambles at the moment. At least in the EU we have some form of active leadership, mainly from Germany. Very uncertain times which will get a lot more uncertain if we leave. Not to mention what might become of America.

It's great. The political system has been run for the elites by the elites for too long and that is why we have seen public services cut, wages deflated and the cost of living skyrocket. If the leadership is leading you over the cliff then it might be effective but maybe it's not a great idea to follow.

 

[daylightrobber]

Not only that but if you do believe in a world free from racism and xenophobia then forcing uncontrolled immigration on a population is the quickest way to bring about the opposite which is what we are seeing.

What drives racism and xenophobia is racism and xenophobia. Finger pointing and blaming others. Not the victims themselves.

 

[Cypher]

What drives racism and xenophobia is racism and xenophobia. Finger pointing and blaming others. Not the victims themselves.

What a stupid argument. You may as well say what drives the wind is the wind. What does that even mean?

No one is pointing fingers at the immigrants which is what I assume you mean as victims. We're pointing fingers at Merkel and her idiotic policies.

 

[Seathestars]

Something to think about for everybody. If we leave then a whole load of negotiations are going to be required. The Labour Party, such as it is, is split and there is no discernible leadership. Corbyn is doing nothing. The Tories are in an even worse state if that is possible and they are wrecked for years to come. Liberals again non-existent. Scots Nationalists will want another referendum if we leave. Politics in the UK is an absolute shambles at the moment. At least in the EU we have some form of active leadership, mainly from Germany. Very uncertain times which will get a lot more uncertain if we leave. Not to mention what might become of America.

Rob I can't believe you wrote this, as much as I like your willingness to debate what is basically a guessing game for the future, in or out, this is simply wrong.

 

[Cypher]

Rob I can't believe you wrote this, as much as I like your willingness to debate what is basically a guessing game for the future, in or out, this is simply wrong.

Why? We do have active leadership from Germany. They're the ones in control of the EU and it is effective leadership if not very good.

 

[Seathestars]

Why? We do have active leadership from Germany. They're the ones in control of the EU and it is effective leadership if not very good.

Yes, that was my point, the Germans do run the EU, and to suit their own agenda, I'm just surprised a remain voter admitted it and will still vote remain when their opinion is that the Germans lead the EU.

 

[Clint Planet]

What's your point or is that another joke?

Well, this "90,000,000 Turks are on their way!" thing makes them out to be baby-eating monsters (Islamophobic dog whistling, too, if you ask me) but in my experience they're lovely and about as Muslim as English people are Christian.

 

[Cypher]

Yes, that was my point, the Germans do run the EU, and to suit their own agenda, I'm just surprised a remain voter admitted it and will still vote remain when their opinion is that the Germans lead the EU.

Most remain voters don't really have any love for the British parliament. I'm surprised you are surprised.

 

[Cypher]

Well, this "90,000,000 Turks are on their way!" thing makes them out to be baby-eating monsters (Islamophobic dog whistling, too, if you ask me) but in my experience they're lovely and about as Muslim as English people are Christian.

It doesn't make them out to be anything. However let's deal in facts. Do you think that if the population of Britain increases by 30% (mostly poor people) do you think the Tory government (or even Labour for that matter) are going to increase public spending by 30%. Do you think we are going to virtually overnight increase housing supply by 30%.

No of course what will happen is that spending will stay very similar to what it is now however the amount of people that are reliant on both public spending and housing etc will have gone up meaning there will be effectively less for everyone else. It's not rocket science. It's not hard to understand.

Then when you factor in that unlike other migrants Muslims tend to be more likely to be unemployed (50% men, 75% women) the problem is worse because not only has the population increased but the people relying on the state has gone up even more disproportionately.

It's in a way a very effective way to lower the tax burden on the rich through the backdoor.

Why? Because they benefit from the increase in GDP and demand for housing far more than they lose in the relative decrease in public spending.

 

[roydo]

A 30% increase in the population is a tad on the excessive side to illustrate your otherwise sound point.

 

[Clint Planet]

It doesn't make them out to be anything. However let's deal in facts. Do you think that if the population of Britain increases by 30% (mostly poor people) do you think the Tory government (or even Labour for that matter) are going to increase public spending by 30%. Do you think we are going to virtually overnight increase housing supply by 30%.

No of course what will happen is that spending will stay very similar to what it is now however the amount of people that are reliant on both public spending and housing etc will have gone up meaning there will be effectively less for everyone else. It's not rocket science. It's not hard to understand.

Then when you factor in that unlike other migrants Muslims tend to be more likely to be unemployed (50% men, 75% women) the problem is worse because not only has the population increased but the people relying on the state has gone up even more disproportionately.

It's in a way a very effective way to lower the tax burden on the rich through the backdoor.

Why? Because they benefit from the increase in GDP and demand for housing far more than they lose in the relative decrease in public spending.

Wow, now that is xenophobic scaremongering. Well done.

Love the "Let's deal in facts" immediately followed by a figure plucked from the air tacked onto some illogical pseudo-economics conjecture.

Immigrants make a net contribution to the UK economy, mate - haven't you heard? And all the many Turks I know and work with (and there must be a dozen working at my workplace) are absolute grafters.

 

[Cypher]

Wow, now that is xenophobic scaremongering. Well done.

Love the "Let's deal in facts" immediately followed by a figure plucked from the air tacked onto some illogical pseudo-economics conjecture.

Immigrants make a net contribution to the UK economy, mate - haven't you heard? And all the many Turks I know and work with (and there must be a dozen working at my workplace) are absolute grafters.

What's the figure plucked from the sky?

30% - I was using 30% as an example. It might be 5% it might be 100%. There's just no way to know but the economic logic stays the same. It's just a case of how bad it will be not that it won't be bad.

I never disagreed with the "net contribution" statistic and included it but if you reread my whole point you would see that doesn't tell the whole story. I also never said the Turks you worked with aren't good people. I am dealing at a socio-economic level. I'm sure individually they're all lovely people but that isn't relevant to the argument.

 

[daylightrobber]

What's the figure plucked from the sky?

30% - I was using 30% as an example. It might be 5% it might be 100%. There's just no way to know but the economic logic stays the same. It's just a case of how bad it will be not that it won't be bad.

I never disagreed with the "net contribution" statistic and included it but if you reread my whole point you would see that doesn't tell the whole story. I also never said the Turks you worked with aren't good people. I am dealing at a socio-economic level. I'm sure individually they're all lovely people but that isn't relevant to the argument.

But it won't be 30% & nor will it be as much as 5%.

And then the figures you give for Muslims in employment only tell half a story too. The reason these figures are high is down to discrimination. Once again you point the finger at the wrong people.

 

[Clint Planet]

What's the figure plucked from the sky?

30% - I was using 30% as an example. It might be 5% it might be 100%.

I think you've answered your own question there.

I also never said the Turks you worked with aren't good people. I am dealing at a socio-economic level. I'm sure individually they're all lovely people but that isn't relevant to the argument.

No but you implied, since they were Muslim, that most of them would be here on benefits. Dog whistle stuff. I responded that all the ones I know are grafters. Real Turks in a massive thriving North London community. Not imaginary spongers as in your rather imaginative theories.

 

[Cypher]

But it won't be 30% & nor will it be as much as 5%.

And then the figures you give for Muslims in employment only tell half a story too. The reason these figures are high is down to discrimination. Once again you point the finger at the wrong people.

I'm not pointing the finger at migrants. I blame the elite because it's their policies that cause the problem as I have repeatable said so.

There's no way to know what the increase will be as I said however here's a graph that I found from Google Images.

As for why Muslims suffer from greater unemployment. I'm not going to get into the why that is because again it isn't relevant. It's simply the statistical fact and those statistics are important to my economic argument.