The EU deal

[Cypher]

No but you implied, since they were Muslim, that most of them would be here on benefits. Dog whistle stuff. I responded that all the ones I know are grafters. Real Turks in a massive thriving North London community. Not imaginary spongers as in your rather imaginative theories.

I didn't imply anything. I stated what are the current statistics not just here but the same statistics are seen across Europe and we can be reasonably confident that will be the same for new arrivals unless you can give me a reason that won't be the case?

 

[Rob17896]

Yes, that was my point, the Germans do run the EU, and to suit their own agenda, I'm just surprised a remain voter admitted it and will still vote remain when their opinion is that the Germans lead the EU.

You are right to point it out. I think they are streets ahead as a nation and welcome lots of German influence in the direction of Europe. Don't think its run for their benefit particularly. Think their development to a truly mixed economy, renewables, recycling and high regard for skillsets other than Financial Services and Property Speculation has given them the lead. We should look and learn.

'Great' Britain has been a leader in so many things in the past, but has not got over the fact it does not have colonies any longer. There are lots of other countries who do certain things much better than we do. Dutch Health Service, German investment in manufacturing, Finnish Social Services etc. We should be really in the thick of it in Europe and getting as good as they are when its better and leading when we are. We have never really got stuck into it, always one step removed somehow.

We are really stuck between being Europeans or Little America. I know what I prefer.

 

[Cypher]

You are right to point it out. I think they are streets ahead as a nation and welcome lots of German influence in the direction of Europe. Don't think its run for their benefit particularly. Think their development to a truly mixed economy, renewables, recycling and high regard for skillsets other than Financial Services and Property Speculation has given them the lead. We should look and learn.

'Great' Britain has been a leader in so many things in the past, but has not got over the fact it does not have colonies any longer. There are lots of other countries who do certain things much better than we do. Dutch Health Service, German investment in manufacturing, Finnish Social Services etc. We should be really in the thick of it in Europe and getting as good as they are when its better and leading when we are. We have never really got stuck into it, always one step removed somehow.

We are really stuck between being Europeans or Little America. I know what I prefer.

Fair enough. At least your honest. Finally an argument I can't disagree with. lol

I suspect a lot of Southern economies feel the same. They would prefer the Germans to run their country rather than their own politicians. Just remember the Germans will always favor their own people and corporations first.

 

[Ratkiller]

Something to think about for everybody. If we leave then a whole load of negotiations are going to be required. The Labour Party, such as it is, is split and there is no discernible leadership. Corbyn is doing nothing. The Tories are in an even worse state if that is possible and they are wrecked for years to come. Liberals again non-existent. Scots Nationalists will want another referendum if we leave. Politics in the UK is an absolute shambles at the moment. At least in the EU we have some form of active leadership, mainly from Germany. Very uncertain times which will get a lot more uncertain if we leave. Not to mention what might become of America.

Is that not a reason to fix our own political system?
Make our politicians work for us?

I might not have voted for these clowns that are in charge now but at least the people of this country have got the opportunity to get rid of them. That option is not there for the leader of another country.

And the idea that a nation should look to another nation for leadership is laughable. It makes a complete mockery of the idea of democracy.

 

[Cypher]

Is that not a reason to fix our own political system?
Make our politicians work for us?

I might not have voted for these clowns that are in charge now but at least the people of this country have got the opportunity to get rid of them. That option is not there for the leader of another country.

And the idea that a nation should look to another nation for leadership is laughable. It makes a complete mockery of the idea of democracy.

I think what you will find is that most people who want to remain don't really believe in democracy. They say they do but deep down they fear a populist leader. A bit like the people who vote Tory because they think they one day will become rich themselves. They prefer the elite to rule them because deep down they want to be or think they are one of the elite. It's actually pretty sad.

 

[magicjuan]

I think what you will find is that most people who want to remain don't really believe in democracy. They say they do but deep down they fear a populist leader. A bit like the people who vote Tory because they think they one day will become rich themselves. They prefer the elite to rule them because deep down they want to be or think they are one of the elite. It's actually pretty sad.

That is an actual insight into a part of the British psyche. Too many are happy doffing their caps for scraps, as long as the scraps they recieve are more than the next person's.... 'nice one Centurion..', it's the ethic they live by.

 

[Cypher]

That is an actual insight into a part of the British psyche. Too many are happy doffing their caps for scraps, as long as the scraps they recieve are more than the next person's.... 'nice one Centurion..', it's the ethic they live by.

That's always been the case. You only ever get revolution when there's no middle class because the middle class act as a buffer between the poor and the rich. It's only when the pigs totally pig out you see change because then the next rung on the social ladder is too great for anyone to climb.

 

[magicjuan]

That's always been the case. You only ever get revolution when there's no middle class because the middle class act as a buffer between the poor and the rich. It's only when the pigs totally pig out you see change because then the next rung on the social ladder is too great for anyone to climb.

I think history will tell those who won't see it that that happened from the early 80s onwards

 

[Rob17896]

Is that not a reason to fix our own political system?
Make our politicians work for us?

I might not have voted for these clowns that are in charge now but at least the people of this country have got the opportunity to get rid of them. That option is not there for the leader of another country.

And the idea that a nation should look to another nation for leadership is laughable. It makes a complete mockery of the idea of democracy.

The context was in the absence of leadership here. Also I pointed out that we do not play as big a role as we should and could. The government got about 37% of the vote and even after that they are so split I expect half of them would not now be supported over Europe. Democracy? Until we have PR there is not really democracy is there?

 

[Ratkiller]

The context was in the absence of leadership here. Also I pointed out that we do not play as big a role as we should and could. The government got about 37% of the vote and even after that they are so split I expect half of them would not now be supported over Europe. Democracy? Until we have PR there is not really democracy is there?

Of course we've got democracy.

The people of this country can vote for whoever they want to lead them. Last time I looked Angela Merkel wasn't in the running.

 

[roydo]

That's always been the case. You only ever get revolution when there's no middle class because the middle class act as a buffer between the poor and the rich. It's only when the pigs totally pig out you see change because then the next rung on the social ladder is too great for anyone to climb.

I think it is more to do with most folk, rich, poor, and middley, not really being that arsed.

 

[Cypher]

I think it is more to do with most folk, rich, poor, and middley, not really being that arsed.

I agree ultimately with democracy the people have the power. They just need to use it. Which is why the EU is setup the way it is. They fear the people using that power.

 

[roydo]

I agree ultimately with democracy the people have the power. They just need to use it. Which is why the EU is setup the way it is. They fear the people using that power.

Or they know they wont. Use it that is.

 

[Rob17896]

Of course we've got democracy.

The people of this country can vote for whoever they want to lead them. Last time I looked Angela Merkel wasn't in the running.

How many people get representation then. We have a clear majority government and 63% did not vote for them. You may believe this is true democracy? Cameron could lead in Europe just as much, he chooses not to. It is here the problem is. Dont blame Europe for our insipid politicians. They cant hold a party together never mind a continent.

 

[Cypher]

Or they know they wont. Use it that is.

Probably. I think more people are questioning especially those that are on the front line of the changes but ultimately most people at the moment have a relatively easy life.

The one thing I do know is that change won't happen through democratic means within the EU if that's what you mean by power. The people don't have that power.