The EU deal

[Hibbertinho]

Still think Turkey joining up is a good idea??

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36413097

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has called on Muslims to reject contraception and have more children.

In a speech broadcast live on TV, he said "no Muslim family" should consider birth control or family planning.

"We will multiply our descendants," said Mr Erdogan, who became president in August 2014 after serving as prime minister for 12 years.

His AK Party has its roots in Islamism and many of its supporters are conservative Muslims.

In Monday's speech in Istanbul, the Turkish leader placed the onus on women, particularly on "well-educated future mothers", to not use birth control and to ensure the continued growth of Turkey's population.

Mr Erdogan himself is a father of four. He has previously spoken out against contraception, describing it as "treason" when speaking at a wedding ceremony in 2014.

He has also urged women to have at least three children, and has said women cannot be treated as equal to men.

The Turkish Statistical Institute says that the country's fertility rate was 2.14 children per woman in 2015, which is just above the replacement level and half the rate in 1980.

Despite this decline, Turkey's fertility rate is one of the highest in Europe and the country's relatively young population (compared with other European countries) is still growing. The population is just under 80 million.

The United Nations Population Fund says Turkey has a "substantial" unmet need for quality family planning. One fifth of married women use abortion as a way of controlling their fertility, it says.

BBC Religions: Islamic views on contraception

Does anyone have to think it's a good idea? There's no way they will be allowed to join, in my view, with that despot at the helm - and whilst not conforming to any of the Copenhagen criteria. Besides, Poland, Austria, Slovakia etc. will never allow them.

 

[peteblue]

Is this what constituents a defence to prove someone isn't racist nowadays?

Why do you keep bringing racism into a thread that is about the best future for the UK.......I'd say stick to your economic or democratic arguments but I'm not sure you have any.......

 

[dandydan]

10 days after the speech a black family’s christening party in Wolverhampton had been attacked by a gang of racist thugs chanting “Powell” and “Why don't you go back to your own country.” The baby’s grandfather was slashed in the face with a knife.
Yes he did. Yes he did.

Charles Manson cited the Beatles as the reason for his crimes, are they responsible for the murders committed by Charles and his gang?

 

[Cypher]

"When I saw how the European Union was developing, it was very obvious what they had in mind was not democratic. In Britain, you vote for a government so the government has to listen to you, and if you don't like it you can change it."

"Britain's continuing membership of the [European] Community would mean the end of Britain as a completely self-governing nation."

We have confused the real issue of parliamentary democracy, for already there has been a fundamental change. The power of electors over their law-makers has gone, the power of MPs over Ministers has gone, the role of Ministers has changed. The real case for entry has never been spelled out, which is that there should be a fully federal Europe in which we become a province. It hasn't been spelled out because people would never accept it. We are at the moment on a federal escalator, moving as we talk, going towards a federal objective we do not wish to reach. In practice, Britain will be governed by a European coalition government that we cannot change, dedicated to a capitalist or market economy theology. This policy is to be sold to us by projecting an unjustified optimism about the Community, and an unjustified pessimism about the United Kingdom, designed to frighten us in. Jim quoted Benjamin Franklin, so let me do the same: "He who would give up essential liberty for a little temporary security deserves neither safety nor liberty." The Common Market will break up the UK because there will be no valid argument against an independent Scotland, with its own Ministers and Commissioner, enjoying Common Market membership. We shall be choosing between the unity of the UK and the unity of the EEC. It will impose appalling strains on the Labour movement...I believe that we want independence and democratic self-government, and I hope the Cabinet in due course will think again.

If democracy is destroyed in Britain it will be not the communists, Trotskyists or subversives but this House which threw it away. The rights that are entrusted to us are not for us to give away. Even if I agree with everything that is proposed, I cannot hand away powers lent to me for five years by the people of Chesterfield. I just could not do it. It would be theft of public rights.

‘There are three options open to us. One is to protect our parliamentary democracy, which would offend the
Community; the second is to abandon parliamentary democracy which would offend the Manifesto; the third
option is to fudge it.
‘This is the most important constitutional document ever put before a Labour Cabinet. Our whole political
history is contained in this paper. It recommends a reversal of hundreds of years of history which have
progressively widened the power of the people over their governors. Now great chunks are to be handed to
the Commission. I can think of no body of men outside the Kremlin who have so much power without a
shred of accountability for what they do.
‘The Community will destroy the whole basis on which the labour movement was founded, and its
commitment to democratic change. That’s one of the reasons we have a small Communist Party, why the
ultra-Left is so unimportant, because we can say to people “Change your MP and you can change the law”.
That’s where the attack on democracy is coming from. If we accept this paper, we’d be betraying, in a very
special sense, our whole history.’

Yep he hit the nail on the head.

 

[peteblue]

Does anyone have to think it's a good idea? There's no way they will be allowed to join, in my view, with that despot at the helm - and whilst not conforming to any of the Copenhagen criteria. Besides, Poland, Austria, Slovakia etc. will never allow them.

So our future wellbeing and development needs to be protected by Poland, Austria, Slovakia, etc. Or we could just leave and make our own decisions..........

 

[jaycee]

I doubt the majority that will vote either way care what economists have to say,my own opinion is immigration is the topic that is going to make the difference,wanting control of your borders doesnt immediately make you a racist,for all the selective pros and cons thrown out that is the deciding factor

 

[Hibbertinho]

Everyone has bills to pay. Don't dismiss the reason being that simple.

I don't understand what you're getting at here - is that a response to the economists?

Would these be the same people who said we should join the Euro ? Or are they the same economists who wanted us in the ERM or are they the ones who missed the collapse of the banks......

It is a profession in absolute disarray, I agree. The neoclassical orthodoxy has been proved to be inadequate - the mainstream school of thought that failed to predict the '08 crash.

But on those other issues, I think you'll find there was a more even split in support within the field. And I think a failure to understand the mechanism in a massive, complex system like a global market which led to a collapse is totally different in nature to the more straight-forward permutations that we're talking about here.

I understand the mistrust, but still amazed that people want to willfully ignore a huge majority of the profession.

 

[Hibbertinho]

So our future wellbeing and development needs to be protected by Poland, Austria, Slovakia, etc. Or we could just leave and make our own decisions..........

Again, you seem to be signalling a false dichotomy here - I'm simply saying that Turkey's attempted accession is not to be taken seriously... so for me that's one less fear-mongering reason to leave.

 

[peteblue]

It is a profession in absolute disarray, I agree. The neoclassical orthodoxy has been proved to be inadequate - the mainstream school of thought that failed to predict the '08 crash.

But on those other issues, I think you'll find there was a more even split in support within the field. And I think a failure to understand the mechanism in a massive, complex system like a global market which led to a collapse is totally different in nature to the more straight-forward permutations that we're talking about here.

I understand the mistrust, but still amazed that people want to willfully ignore a huge majority of the profession.

It is a 'profession' that seems to consistently get things wrong or does not see anything coming. Economists usually disagree on everything but when the do agree then it's a fairly safe bet that the opposite will happen........

 

[SNova]

Facebook Signs European Union Pledge To Suppress Loosely Defined ‘Hate Speech’ And Promote ‘Counter Narratives’

The European Commission has today announced a partnership with Facebook, Twitter, YouTube and Microsoft in order to crack down on what it classes as “illegal hate speech” while “criminalizing] perpetrators and “promoting independent counter-narratives” that the European Union favours.

A press release from the Commission this morning claims the new initiative has been set up “to respond to the challenge of ensuring that online platforms do not offer opportunities for illegal online hate speech to spread virally”.

The move has been branded “Orwellian” by Members of the European Parliament, and digital freedom groups have already pulled out of any further discussions with the Commission, calling the new policy “lamentable”.

The unelected, executive branch of the European Union (EU) released a “Code of Conduct” today that “includes a series of commitments to combat the spread of illegal hate speech online in Europe” developed “together with Facebook, Twitter, YouTube and Microsoft (‘the ITcompanies’)” who have “signed up”.

 

[Hibbertinho]

It is a 'profession' that seems to consistently get things wrong or does not see anything coming. Economists usually disagree on everything but when the do agree then it's a fairly safe bet that the opposite will happen........

Okay, they get things right too mate.

But you're right, you know better. Just bet the other way that the 'experts' do and we'll all be sound.

 

[Hibbertinho]

Facebook Signs European Union Pledge To Suppress Loosely Defined ‘Hate Speech’ And Promote ‘Counter Narratives’

The European Commission has today announced a partnership with Facebook, Twitter, YouTube and Microsoft in order to crack down on what it classes as “illegal hate speech” while “criminalizing] perpetrators and “promoting independent counter-narratives” that the European Union favours.

A press release from the Commission this morning claims the new initiative has been set up “to respond to the challenge of ensuring that online platforms do not offer opportunities for illegal online hate speech to spread virally”.

The move has been branded “Orwellian” by Members of the European Parliament, and digital freedom groups have already pulled out of any further discussions with the Commission, calling the new policy “lamentable”.

The unelected, executive branch of the European Union (EU) released a “Code of Conduct” today that “includes a series of commitments to combat the spread of illegal hate speech online in Europe” developed “together with Facebook, Twitter, YouTube and Microsoft (‘the ITcompanies’)” who have “signed up”.

That's a directive to tackle illegal hate speech on social media platforms... which is narrowly defined as “all conduct publicly inciting to violence or hatred directed against a group of persons or a member of such a group defined by reference to race, colour, religion, descent or national or ethnic origin”.

Does that pose a problem for you? It doesn't really hinder anything that I have to say on FB/Twitter, I must admit.

 

[daylightrobber]

Why do you keep bringing racism into a thread that is about the best future for the UK.......I'd say stick to your economic or democratic arguments but I'm not sure you have any.......

Racism is part of the debate though isn't it. I'll admit that there are some in the Brexit camp who don't use it, but unfortunately as the campaigns go on, the more desperate Brexit becomes and the more they turn to arguments which point the finger at foreigners and tell us lies about how we're going to be invaded by 72m Turks.

 

[SNova]

That's a directive to tackle illegal hate speech on social media platforms... which is narrowly defined as “all conduct publicly inciting to violence or hatred directed against a group of persons or a member of such a group defined by reference to race, colour, religion, descent or national or ethnic origin”.

Does that pose a problem for you? It doesn't really hinder anything that I have to say on FB/Twitter, I must admit.

I believe in freedom of speech, I also do not trust the unelected (which we cannot remove) to decide on what classifies as 'hate speech' or wrong think.

 

[dandydan]

That's a directive to tackle illegal hate speech on social media platforms... which is narrowly defined as “all conduct publicly inciting to violence or hatred directed against a group of persons or a member of such a group defined by reference to race, colour, religion, descent or national or ethnic origin”.

Does that pose a problem for you? It doesn't really hinder anything that I have to say on FB/Twitter, I must admit.

Judging by the amount of "racist" cries in this thread I'd say it's an attempt to close down debate on social media.