This nurse Letby case

[tsubaki]

My understanding is that two verdicts of attempted murder were delivered with a unanimous verdict and the rest by majority.

honestly juries sometimes do my head in

 

[Nymzee]

You would think so, but I doubt it. NHS being what it is at manager level.

What I dont get, is that mortality rates are generally similar across hospitals. So any spike would/should provoke an interest. And when a patient dies in hospital, major trauma etc excused, there is an actual inquest before a body is released. I had to wait a few weeks before my darling Nikki was "released", cos of an inquest. (It was proceedure, nowt fishy). Maybe back in 2016 that wasnt the process, dunno.

Mind you, Shipman got away with it for years.

Yeh I know virtually nothing about this case so hesitant to give too many opinions but it just seemed like quite an obscene number of deaths/collapses of stable babies over the course of a year. You would surely start to think "this isn't normal, who are the staff on hand for each of these occasions" and pick out the glaring outlier. Hopefully they can do a deep dive on this and also come up with some safeguarding for any possible future scenarios.

 

[tsubaki]

Yeh I know virtually nothing about this case so hesitant to give too many opinions but it just seemed like quite an obscene number of deaths/collapses of stable babies over the course of a year. You would surely start to think "this isn't normal, who are the staff on hand for each of these occasions" and pick out the glaring outlier. Hopefully they can do a deep dive on this and also come up with some safeguarding for any possible future scenarios.

The worrying thing is that they did that, identified the outlier and then apparently were made to apologise to it.

 

[Nymzee]

The worrying thing is that they did that, identified the outlier and then apparently were made to apologise to it.

Oh I listened to the clip, and it did seem that's what they'd done. I was meaning more the people in power who brushed it off. Like if they were shown the pattern they surely can't be like "nah that's normal".

 

[davek]

Dont think a judge convicts on a minority verdict mate.

Yes, but there's majority and unanimous...which especially sheds light if the number was down to 11.

I'm just watching the news and they had a friend of Letby who wanted to be interviewed face to face to insist she was innocent as far as she's concerned.

Incredible backing under the circumstances.

I dont know what it is but something doesn't stack up here.

 

[davek]

My understanding is that two verdicts of attempted murder were delivered with a unanimous verdict and the rest by majority.

Six counts no verdicts could be reached and may go for retrial - she was found not guilty on two charges I think.

Where was that from mate?

 

[Bohemian Toffee]

honestly juries sometimes do my head in

I feel like I've seen a documentary about juries making their decisions on really abstract opinions and such. Did I dream it?

 

[Joey66]

Can anyone tell me what the verdict was in terms of numbers?

Only 11 jury members in the end as one was excused for ill health. Was it a majority? I suspect it was given that it'd be plastrered all over the place if it was a unanimous verdict.

So it should have been the NHS should never investigate itself - an independent body should be set up after this debacle on how long she was allowed to do this guilty as hell yet top doctors at one point apologised to her !
An independent body or police unit should be able to respond to any public outcry not done internally who imo most probably new full to well what was going on imo they are as guilty as her-
My past experiences Dr's & Nurses will mouth off about incompetence, but never put pen to paper to help anyone who has had negligence against them -
This is again something in the NHS that will sadly happen again if investigation changes are not carried out by an impartial investigation team from outside any hospital with the force of the police ,,,,

 

[tsubaki]

Yes, but there's majority and unanimous...which especially sheds light if the number was down to 11.

I'm just watching the news and they had a friend of Letby who wanted to be interviewed face to face to insist she was innocent as far as she's concerned.

Incredible backing under the circumstances.

I dont know what it is but something doesn't stack up here.

TBF dave someone who people would think could murder a load of babies is not going to get employed in a job where they look after babies.

 

[Bohemian Toffee]

Where was that from mate?

Sky news - their online coverage. I quote "First, after 72 hours of discussions, the jury found unanimously found her guilty of the attempted murders of Children F and L. They agreed with the prosecution that Letby had poisoned their IV drip bags with insulin on separate occasions eight months apart".

Full thing in all it's sensational glory is in the link below:

Inside courtroom seven: The trial of Lucy Letby and the moment she was found guilty

For her victims' parents, it has been an agonising and unimaginable wait. They have sat through graphic descriptions of their babies' final moments, as the prosecution tried to prove Letby poisoned them, pumped them with excessive gas or milk, or violently assaulted them.

news.sky.com

 

[Joey66]

Has anyone been following this?

The media have set her up as an evil witch for the past year. I wasn't that interested in it but the last few days summing up of their case by the defence has you thinking there's something more to this than her actions.

? Why post tripe?

 

[davek]

So it should have been the NHS should never investigate itself - an independent body should be set up after this debacle on how long she was allowed to do this guilty as hell yet top doctors at one point apologised to her !
An independent body or police unit should be able to respond to any public outcry not done internally who imo most probably new full to well what was going on imo they are as guilty as her-
My past experiences Dr's & Nurses will mouth off about incompetence, but never put pen to paper to help anyone who has had negligence against them -
This is again something in the NHS that will sadly happen again if investigation changes are not carried out by an impartial investigation team from outside any hospital with the force of the police ,,,,

 

[roydo]

Yeh I know virtually nothing about this case so hesitant to give too many opinions but it just seemed like quite an obscene number of deaths/collapses of stable babies over the course of a year. You would surely start to think "this isn't normal, who are the staff on hand for each of these occasions" and pick out the glaring outlier. Hopefully they can do a deep dive on this and also come up with some safeguarding for any possible future scenarios.

All I can surmise is the babes that were killed, were not expected to last long anyrate. So for a while, their passing was not a medical surprise. It wasnt until a pattern developed that the senior docs raised concerns.

Nikki was given 20 minutes. She lived for 20 months. They know a lot, but they dont know everything.

 

[davek]

Sky news - their online coverage. I quote "First, after 72 hours of discussions, the jury found unanimously found her guilty of the attempted murders of Children F and L. They agreed with the prosecution that Letby had poisoned their IV drip bags with insulin on separate occasions eight months apart".

Full thing in all it's sensational glory is in the link below:

Inside courtroom seven: The trial of Lucy Letby and the moment she was found guilty

For her victims' parents, it has been an agonising and unimaginable wait. They have sat through graphic descriptions of their babies' final moments, as the prosecution tried to prove Letby poisoned them, pumped them with excessive gas or milk, or violently assaulted them.

news.sky.com

Ok thanks.

That sounds like the jury were all over the place to me. They weren't to blame though, the ropiness of a lot of the evidence sounds like it's left them unable to agree on most charges.

 

[Nymzee]

Were all the babies that were killed/attempted prem babies too?