Tom Cleverley

[Parkender]

Exactly this.

He fits the system brilliantly in games like yesterday and against Newcastle.

But we also have Mirallas and Niasse as well.

Cleverley, much like Lennon, brings that experience and balance that you need to get the best out of the young players.

For as good as Del has been this season, Lennon is coming in and doing an entirely different job and is now getting results.

Cleverley is perfect for that role on the left as he does not have to stay rigidly in that position when attacking. But, when he defends, he tracks backs well and helps out the full backs, and it means we can leave Barkley further up-field where he can do all the damage.

Im having that one. Ged and Niasse might be technically better and more exciting wingers but I think the tactics and team yesterday were spot on. Martinez gets too much grief for being tactically naive but he done well yesterday. I wouldnt necessarily look to start that team at home or against weaker teams

 

[graeme2911]

Cleverley is a far better player than a lot of the tosh we've had in recent years.

So is that a good enough reason to accept mediocrity?

 

[Parkender]

A Bolton fan hey, tell me more.

Always interested to hear what Bolton fans have to say about players they dont watch every week.

 

[Goat]

So is that a good enough reason to accept mediocrity?

Can you name these other medicore players we have accepted please.

 

[oldblue]

I was fishing with that comment, but since you ask, I have stated many times why I do not rate him, with reasoning.

If you want to go down the route of quantifiable, then he doesn't score enough or assist enough, or make enough what are often called key passes, ie. Starting or heavily contributing in a move that creates a goal or chance.

If you want qualitative reasoning, I watch him every game, watched plenty of Villa last season and plenty of Utd when he was there. I DID see a player with potential 5 years ago, hence why SAF played him so much. He had world class players around him to compliment him and allow him to develop.
He is now 26, and no longer qualifies for potential.
His passing is decent, long passes occasionally very good.
His tackling is weak, very weak. He can win a ball through pressure, but not 1 on 1, ala Barry or Besic which for a midfielder is not good.
He isn't as good as Pienaar or Mirallas, two options which if fit and motivated are ahead of him.



This is completely what a mate of mine, who is a Bolton fan, has said that he has noticed a worrying trend amongst Evertonians over the last couple of years. There is a huge swing towards acceptance of mediocrity. You cannot keep putting lesser players in the XI and still expect things to stay rosy. Look at Villa. They said it'll be ok, we can cope without Barry, Milner, Young, Downing.

The main strength of his game is keeping possession and providing good possession for players who are there to play key passes. But he's proving he can do both.
His tackling wasn't something I had ever been aware of but have actually been impressed with it. He's not going to muscle players off the ball but he is stealing it and keeping possession. It's actually pretty rare a player wins a ball one on one rather than through pressure.
But doesn't sound like our analysis is that different except you then decide that these qualities make him mediocre compared to Mirallas, whose tackling is weak and often reckless, who doesn't track back, who doesn't link as well with Barkley, whose range of passing is limited. And in terms of balance is looking to do something similar to Ross, Del or Lennon

 

[Parkender]

So is that a good enough reason to accept mediocrity?

Well he's not really mediocre is he? Do you think anyone not scoring 40 yard howitzers or plundering 40 goals a season is mediocre? He's decent as a squad player. He's not going to set the world alight but he will do a good job for us over the course of a season.

I love the word plundering. Ive been dying to say it on here.

Plundering.

 

[BlueToff]

So is that a good enough reason to accept mediocrity?

But he's not mediocre? He's a good player and a versatile player and a player that top managers like Ferguson and Wenger rate highly. Every squad needs one of those players.

He's been a terrific free signing for us and he's a player that thrives when a manager backs him, as Martinez does.

 

[Parkender]

The main strength of his game is keeping possession and providing good possession for players who are there to play key passes. But he's proving he can do both.
His tackling wasn't something I had ever been aware of but have actually been impressed with it. He's not going to muscle players off the ball but he is stealing it and keeping possession. It's actually pretty rare a player wins a ball one on one rather than through pressure.
But doesn't sound like our analysis is that different except you then decide that these qualities make him mediocre compared to Mirallas, whose tackling is weak and often reckless, who doesn't track back, who doesn't link as well with Barkley, whose range of passing is limited. And in terms of balance is looking to do something similar to Ross, Del or Lennon

HEY U, STOP PLUNDERING ON HERE AND TAWKING SENSE. HES MEDIOCRE AND ITS GOT TO STOP BEING ACCEPTABLE

 

[LinekersLegs]

I was fishing with that comment, but since you ask, I have stated many times why I do not rate him, with reasoning.

If you want to go down the route of quantifiable, then he doesn't score enough or assist enough, or make enough what are often called key passes, ie. Starting or heavily contributing in a move that creates a goal or chance.
.

He's got more Key passes per game this season (1.3) than Kev (0.7) and Pienaar (0.3) combined
https://www.whoscored.com/Teams/31

Only players he is behind in the metric are Ross (1.6), Rom (1.5) and Deulofeu/Baines both on 1.4

Agree he doesn't score enough - he shoots well and hard but a little toO straight at the keeper but an encouraging uptrend in his assists.

Also got much better defensive stats than either Kev or Mirallas, he is only behind Galloway, Barry, McCarthy and Oviedo in the number of tackles he makes per game - surprisingly ahead even of Besic!

 

[graeme2911]

That last points a bit silly mate. Those were Villas best players when they let them go. No one is saying we'd be ok if Rom, Ross, Stones and Coleman were all sold and not replaced properly, most fans are saying we have a good squad player here.

You could argue that Pienaar and Mirallas have been two of our best players in recent years and it's their position he has replaced. It has to start with one position being replaced with an inferior player. We wouldn't accept Rom being sold and being replaced with a lesser player, so why should we with our left wing position?
I agree that as a squad player, he can do well against the lesser teams like he has twice this week. I have said this time and time again.

However from reading this thread, it doesn't actually come across that his fans think this also, rather that he is a superbly talented footballer who we are lucky to have. Look at posts just after the Newcastle and Stoke wins....comments similar to "what a player we have here" etc.

People are forgetting just how good Pienaar was a couple of years ago, and how devastating a fit and motivated Mirallas is.
I just don't accept any position in our XI or squad being replaced with someone lesser as easily as others.

 

[longers]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...hails-Evertons-sensational-Tom-Cleverley.html

'He is one of the most sensational players you are going to see in Premier League history'

 

[Parkender]

People are forgetting just how good Pienaar was a couple of years ago, and how devastating a fit and motivated Mirallas is.

Im going to point something out here. Pienaar is on his last legs and Mirallas isnt motivated. Ive banged on for years that he has the Cottee syndrome. He would rather us lose and him score than us win and him look average. Mirrallas should have been amazing but other than a few worldies over the years and a few good derby games, he's not been as good as he should have been. And Ive heard rumours he drives a gold Rolls Royce. Do you want someone driving a gold Rolls Royce playing for us? Well do you?

 

[Parkender]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...hails-Evertons-sensational-Tom-Cleverley.html

'He is one of the most sensational players you are going to see in Premier League history'

I cant read the link, Ive plundered too many views on their website. Can you copy and paste that phenomenal article here? Cheers

 

[oldblue]

You could argue that Pienaar and Mirallas have been two of our best players in recent years and it's their position he has replaced. It has to start with one position being replaced with an inferior player. We wouldn't accept Rom being sold and being replaced with a lesser player, so why should we with our left wing position?
I agree that as a squad player, he can do well against the lesser teams like he has twice this week. I have said this time and time again.

However from reading this thread, it doesn't actually come across that his fans think this also, rather that he is a superbly talented footballer who we are lucky to have. Look at posts just after the Newcastle and Stoke wins....comments similar to "what a player we have here" etc.

People are forgetting just how good Pienaar was a couple of years ago, and how devastating a fit and motivated Mirallas is.
I just don't accept any position in our XI or squad being replaced with someone lesser as easily as others.

Pienaar was excellent a few years ago. How does that make people saying Cleverley looks a hell of a player wrong? Rather than excepting mediocrity aren't people actually suggesting we need quality even if they're not automatic starters.

 

[longers]

I cant read the link, Ive plundered too many views on their website. Can you copy and paste that phenomenal article here? Cheers

Roberto Martinez believes that there is no better technical English player than Tom Cleverley, as Everton’s manager challenged the former Manchester United player to score the 10 goals a season that can make him “one of the most sensational players in Premier League history”.

Everton could supply Roy Hodgson with the biggest club contingent of his Euro 2016 squad, with Ross Barkley, John Stones, Phil Jagielka and Leighton Baines all in line to go to France. The re-emergence of Cleverleyand Aaron Lennon provided the watching England manager with food for thought at the Britannia Stadium on Saturday while Gareth Barry, with 53 caps, remains a reliable anchorman.

Romelu Lukaku became the first Evertonian to score 20 goals in successive seasons since Graeme Sharp 30 years ago with a penalty earned by Cleverley’s third-man dash into the area. Then Cleverley whipped in the corner from which Seamus Coleman netted his first goal of the season and Lennon sealed the win by half-time.

Even if his manager’s gushing bordered on hyperbole, Martinez believes Cleverley’s increased resilience means he has never played better. “I think he can go even further,” the Spaniard, who loaned Cleverley for Wigan, five years ago, said.

“I think you do not have a better English player. Technically, he is as good as you get. The way he executes, how he reads the game, for me he is one of the most sensational you are going to see in Premier League history.

“I wouldn’t sell him for any money in the current market. I want to see him go from strength to strength because I know there is so much more to come.”