Everton Youth Teams Thread

[andy4efc]

Harsh on Holgate that

Agreed.

Is he still under 21?

If so, maybe cause he hasn't really had a pre-season they didnt want to give him teh extra games with his unexpected games at first team so far.

 

[rochdaleblue]

Depends what you determine as "kids". Under 23 is what I think. In which case there are plenty.

To name but a few, Sane (22), Jesus (21), Rashford (20), Alexander-Arnold (19), Chilwell (21), Ndidi (21), Gray (22)...

Maybe they aren't "world class" yet but they are playing at a very high level. And they are way ahead of Jonjoe.

Just to be clear though that I really like Kenny and think he is a good understudy to Coleman and will definitely improve.

Hate to say it but Alexander Arnold does look a player. Trippier and Arnold are both top class full backs. In time Kenny might be as well and hopefully can make the full England squad.

 

[Barnfred 55]

Always buzz when we have so many in the squad. Should really be 6 though. How are people like Clarke-Salter getting in ahead of Holgate?

It's fallout from the homophobic/racist claim episode. There's no other logical explanation. He has more premier experience than everybody in that squad apart from Tom and Dom and he's been doing very well so that can't be used as an excuse either. It's very unfair on him.

I'm sure Mason will react in the best possible way and Everton will benefit from that.

I realise a lot of you will take this as more Sam bashing, but I honestly feel the club, and the manager in particular, badly let the lad down earlier this year. We should have come out and supported him publically, rather than let the press crucify him. And leaving that lad out of the team, effectively for the rest of the season, was the exact opposite of what we should have done. Especially as he was arguably our best defender at the time anyway. As you know, people will form their own conclusions and many will have construed that as punishment from the club, especially in the absence of the usual lack of comment from the management.

 

[Nymzee]

It's fallout from the homophobic/racist claim episode. There's no other logical explanation. He has more premier experience than everybody in that squad apart from Tom and Dom and he's been doing very well so that can't be used as an excuse either. It's very unfair on him.

I'm sure Mason will react in the best possible way and Everton will benefit from that.

I realise a lot of you will take this as more Sam bashing, but I honestly feel the club, and the manager in particular, badly let the lad down earlier this year. We should have come out and supported him publically, rather than let the press crucify him. And leaving that lad out of the team, effectively for the rest of the season, was the exact opposite of what we should have done. Especially as he was arguably our best defender at the time anyway. As you know, people will form their own conclusions and many will have construed that as punishment from the club, especially in the absence of the usual lack of comment from the management.

Least now he’s been given the chance to show everyone what he can do.

 

[Barnfred 55]

Hate to say it but Alexander Arnold does look a player. Trippier and Arnold are both top class full backs. In time Kenny might be as well and hopefully can make the full England squad.

Before AA was promoted to the senior team, he and Kenny used to alternate at RB for the U21s, depending on who we were playing. If it was a poor team, AA would play, but against the better teams JJ would play because they didn't trust AA defensively. In fact, I saw one game where they started with AA, then brought in JJ at half time and played AA ahead of him.

In the England set up where they play a back 3, AA would get the nod every time for me. So certainly I see JJ struggling to get in this team whilst Southgate is there or we continue to play this system.

 

[Nymzee]

Before AA was promoted to the senior team, he and Kenny used to alternate at RB for the U21s, depending on who we were playing. If it was a poor team, AA would play, but against the better teams JJ would play because they didn't trust AA defensively. In fact, I saw one game where they started with AA, then brought in JJ at half time and played AA ahead of him.

In the England set up where they play a back 3, AA would get the nod every time for me. So certainly I see JJ struggling to get in this team whilst Southgate is there or we continue to play this system.

Unless he plays the “Walker-role” at RCB

 

[Lanolin]

Before AA was promoted to the senior team, he and Kenny used to alternate at RB for the U21s, depending on who we were playing. If it was a poor team, AA would play, but against the better teams JJ would play because they didn't trust AA defensively. In fact, I saw one game where they started with AA, then brought in JJ at half time and played AA ahead of him.

In the England set up where they play a back 3, AA would get the nod every time for me. So certainly I see JJ struggling to get in this team whilst Southgate is there or we continue to play this system.

To be fair though, Alexander Arnold has improved massively defensively over the last 12 months. He and Gomez look genuinely good to me, in a way that Holgate and Kenny haven't. I'm not saying they'll always be ahead of them, but much as it annoys me I think they're on a totally different level right now.

Alexander Arnold is about 18 months younger than Kenny too, so it's hardly surprising he was less developed 12 months ago, he was only 18.

 

[Parker]

Unless he plays the “Walker-role” at RCB

I think Holgate is made for that role, suits it more than playing in a 2 imo.

 

[BainesontoastNEW]

Regarding Holgate, this is a cycle in which Foden, Sancho and Hudson-Odoi have not been selected for any of the England squads so perhaps we shouldnt read too much into it.

 

[Barnfred 55]

Do you know how many players have gained more than 40 caps for England in the 146 years since their first game? 84. Do you know how many of those were playing within the last 10 years? 30. The games changed, 20 England caps is the equivalent of 5 a few years ago. Ross Barkley made his Everton breakthrough a couple of months before he turned 20 and hasn't kicked a ball for England since he was 21, and yet he's still got 22 caps.

50 is obviously a number plucked out of thin air, but the point is to play regularly for Everton in a couple of years I very much hope that you will need to be at least as good as the likes of Baines and Jagielka, who have 30 and 40 caps respectively.

It's a tough one. I genuinely hope Kenny proves me wrong both because young players coming through is what I want to see anyway, and because I always liked him as a youngster, but I just haven't been massively impressed with what I've seen at senior level. In 3 seasons he'll be 24/25. Considering he first played senior football at 18, I just can't see him wanting to wait until then to become first choice, and if he does, I can't imagine that he'll be of the level we're looking for. That's the harsh truth for young players everywhere now, you've got to be better than ever before to get in ahead of the myriad of internationals available to teams.

Disagree mate with a lot of that mate. Yes we're playing a lot more internationals but I don't agree that 5=20 now. Also the reason that so many young players are getting a chance now is because there is a huge lack in quality for a whole age group covering about 4/5 years. We had a very settled team for about 7/8 years when it was very hard to break into. Towards the end of that era, young players like Barkley, Sterling, Stones and Dele Alli broke through, because there was that vacuum in quality players abioe them. But they were hardly handing out 20 caps like sweets as you are suggesting.

At the moment we have a manager who is trying out a lot of young players and there will be lots who get 3/4/5 caps as he has a look at them.

As regards Jags and Baines. Those players at their best were top drawer, and I'd be delighted to have them in our team now. They were certainly "top 4" players in their prime and to suggest we need to have better than them to move forward I think is doing them a disservice.

I guess you've probably already looked but 2 of the 3 right backs who earned more than 50 England caps were Gary Neville and Phil Neal. If Kenny turns out to be even half as good as them I'd be happy. As for getting England caps himself, not in a back 3 he won't. But if we have a manager that reverts to a back 4 and Kenny develops as I hope, then I can see him getting quite a few caps in the future. whether that be as many as 50 I doubt very much.

 

[Nymzee]

Disagree mate with a lot of that mate. Yes we're playing a lot more internationals but I don't agree that 5=20 now. Also the reason that so many young players are getting a chance now is because there is a huge lack in quality for a whole age group covering about 4/5 years. We had a very settled team for about 7/8 years when it was very hard to break into. Towards the end of that era, young players like Barkley, Sterling, Stones and Dele Alli broke through, because there was that vacuum in quality players abioe them. But they were hardly handing out 20 caps like sweets as you are suggesting.

At the moment we have a manager who is trying out a lot of young players and there will be lots who get 3/4/5 caps as he has a look at them.

As regards Jags and Baines. Those players at their best were top drawer, and I'd be delighted to have them in our team now. They were certainly "top 4" players in their prime and to suggest we need to have better than them to move forward I think is doing them a disservice.

I guess you've probably already looked but 2 of the 3 right backs who earned more than 50 England caps were Gary Neville and Phil Neal. If Kenny turns out to be even half as good as them I'd be happy. As for getting England caps himself, not in a back 3 he won't. But if we have a manager that reverts to a back 4 and Kenny develops as I hope, then I can see him getting quite a few caps in the future. whether that be as many as 50 I doubt very much.

I’d be very shocked if Kenny got a senior cap in his career.

 

[Barnfred 55]

Unless he plays the “Walker-role” at RCB

I actually thought he was very good there for the U21s in the Toulon tournament. Possibly England's most consistent player. Although he's small he was surprisingly very effective in the air.

TBH he's also a decent baller and could play the RWB role too. But I think neither position are ideally suited to him. He's an old fashioned RB in my book.

 

[messymascot]

Holgate is too old as internationals are decided by calendar years not scholar years. If he keeps his form up he might get in the main squad anyways.

 

[BainesontoastNEW]

Regarding Holgate, this is a cycle in which Foden, Sancho and Hudson-Odoi have not been selected for any of the England squads so perhaps we shouldnt read too much into it.

Spoke too soon. All three called up for the u-19's

 

[catcherintherye]

To be fair though, Alexander Arnold has improved massively defensively over the last 12 months. He and Gomez look genuinely good to me, in a way that Holgate and Kenny haven't. I'm not saying they'll always be ahead of them, but much as it annoys me I think they're on a totally different level right now.

Alexander Arnold is about 18 months younger than Kenny too, so it's hardly surprising he was less developed 12 months ago, he was only 18.

To throw my two pennies is. I am not sure Gomez has looked better than Holgate. Both of them look talented players but both have mistakes in them. Holgate's get punished more brutally because he's in a poorer team but I actually think he's made less mistakes than Gomez and has actually had far more experience at CB than him.

The Alexander Arnold/Kenny one is more clear cut. It's funny as this time 15 months ago, you watched both lads at reserve level, both playing right back and there was no doubt who the superior player was. In the reserve derby Kenny was better. For the entirety of that season he was the stand out right back in the youth league. He'd had some first team experience and did very well. He then won the World Cup for the under 20's (a squad TAA didn't make) and was one of the best players at the tournament. IF you'd have asked anyone at that moment which lad puts a late run to get into the England squad 99 out of 100 say Kenny.

Both lads get opportunities because of other lads injuries but without doubt Arnold seized his chance more than Kenny. It may be Arnold over performed and comes back down to earth a bit this season (a bit like Davies, who over performed then resorted to mean). I do think though, Arnold is a much better athlete than Kenny. He's quicker and stronger. He has great technique, but Kenny's technique is good enough for that to be competitive (he delivered crosses well).

I think thats the big thing for me with Kenny. I think he lacks a yard of pace. Everything else in his game is very good. However I think it's hard to be 5 ft 9/10 (even with a good spring) and lack pace in that position. You either need to be taller and more competent defensively or quicker. I am hoping part of this was down to Allardyce/Koeman/The chaos at the club. That they stifled him. In that defence he had always looked quick and attacking as a full back for the 23's and England youth teams so there may be something in it. However there is another part of me that thinks pace is rarely stifled, you are either quick or not. We will see I suppose.

Kenny can be a solid defender and might surprise a few by getting forward more but thats my one concern. It's what differentiates Arnold from his presently. I think Kenny is the better defender and knows the position better, a better tackler, better in the air. However Arnold goes past players and that skill has elevated him so far.