Everton Youth Teams Thread

[Barnfred 55]

To be fair though, Alexander Arnold has improved massively defensively over the last 12 months. He and Gomez look genuinely good to me, in a way that Holgate and Kenny haven't. I'm not saying they'll always be ahead of them, but much as it annoys me I think they're on a totally different level right now.

Alexander Arnold is about 18 months younger than Kenny too, so it's hardly surprising he was less developed 12 months ago, he was only 18.

Fair points. I've always rated Gomez since he was in the U17 that won the euros with Ledson/Kenny. He's a smashing defender and he has the jump on Holgate as regards strength and power. Holgate is possibly the more assured in possession but both are good. Gomez deserves his place in the full squad no doubt. AA is the more exciting of the FBs but I still think JJ is better defensively. I think as FBs they're a lot closer then you do. The difference is AA has been given an opportunity in a confident free flowing team, and JJ hasn't. If you dare quote Kenny under Allardyce last year as a comparison I'll swing for you.

I'd like to see Kenny get a run in a confident Silva team before I make a call on that. I thought he was MOM the other night and you saw both sides to his game which you don't see under Allardyce.

As a RWB, AA get's the vote hands down.

 

[Barnfred 55]

I’d be very shocked if Kenny got a senior cap in his career.

I wouldn't exactly be surprised if he didn't as he still has some development to do and we don't know what the competition is going to be like in 5/6 years time. But it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if he did either. He's been first choice for England right through the age groups so it wouldnlt be a shock to see hom go on and do it at senior level.

I'm interested to find out why you would be "shocked"

 

[Badge1878]

To be fair though, Alexander Arnold has improved massively defensively over the last 12 months. He and Gomez look genuinely good to me, in a way that Holgate and Kenny haven't. I'm not saying they'll always be ahead of them, but much as it annoys me I think they're on a totally different level right now.

Alexander Arnold is about 18 months younger than Kenny too, so it's hardly surprising he was less developed 12 months ago, he was only 18.

Agree on Alexander Arnold - his progression has been remarkable, lads I speak to about him who support them say they reckon he could make it as a midfielder too. Haven't seen enough of him to be honest to agree or disagree but he certainly looks decent in possession and creative. If anything looks better going forward but that's going to be true of many in that side given the possession they usually have in most games. But, back to Kenny, he'll certainly continue to develop provided he gets & takes the opportunities when presented. He struggled at times last year in a poor Everton side lacking leadership on and off the pitch but was one of England's strongest performers in that World Cup team

 

[Nymzee]

I wouldn't exactly be surprised if he didn't as he still has some development to do and we don't know what the competition is going to be like in 5/6 years time. But it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if he did either. He's been first choice for England right through the age groups so it wouldnlt be a shock to see hom go on and do it at senior level.

I'm interested to find out why you would be "shocked"

I just don’t think he’s good enough for that level.

 

[Barnfred 55]

Holgate is too old as internationals are decided by calendar years not scholar years. If he keeps his form up he might get in the main squad anyways.

I suggest you go and have another look at the rule book mate. Holgate still qualifies for the U21s at the moment.

 

[messymascot]

I suggest you go and have another look at the rule book mate. Holgate still qualifies for the U21s at the moment.

It's a bad decision then, I thought with him turning 22 this calendar year he was too old.

 

[mightymoyes]

It's a bad decision then, I thought with him turning 22 this calendar year he was too old.

No sure that's how you end up with 23 Yr olds playing for the u21s in a lot of tournaments

 

[Barnfred 55]

It's a bad decision then, I thought with him turning 22 this calendar year he was too old.

No. It's to do with when the competition started mate. So the qualifying competition (Euro U21 2019) started in 2017. Provided the player is under 21 as at 1.1.2017 (which Holgate was) then he qualifies for the whole tournament.

 

[mightymoyes]

Spoke too soon. All three called up for the u-19's

yeh, holgates omission is just down to bothroyd being a clueless tit

 

[Barnfred 55]

To throw my two pennies is. I am not sure Gomez has looked better than Holgate. Both of them look talented players but both have mistakes in them. Holgate's get punished more brutally because he's in a poorer team but I actually think he's made less mistakes than Gomez and has actually had far more experience at CB than him.

The Alexander Arnold/Kenny one is more clear cut. It's funny as this time 15 months ago, you watched both lads at reserve level, both playing right back and there was no doubt who the superior player was. In the reserve derby Kenny was better. For the entirety of that season he was the stand out right back in the youth league. He'd had some first team experience and did very well. He then won the World Cup for the under 20's (a squad TAA didn't make) and was one of the best players at the tournament. IF you'd have asked anyone at that moment which lad puts a late run to get into the England squad 99 out of 100 say Kenny.

Both lads get opportunities because of other lads injuries but without doubt Arnold seized his chance more than Kenny. It may be Arnold over performed and comes back down to earth a bit this season (a bit like Davies, who over performed then resorted to mean). I do think though, Arnold is a much better athlete than Kenny. He's quicker and stronger. He has great technique, but Kenny's technique is good enough for that to be competitive (he delivered crosses well).

I think thats the big thing for me with Kenny. I think he lacks a yard of pace. Everything else in his game is very good. However I think it's hard to be 5 ft 9/10 (even with a good spring) and lack pace in that position. You either need to be taller and more competent defensively or quicker. I am hoping part of this was down to Allardyce/Koeman/The chaos at the club. That they stifled him. In that defence he had always looked quick and attacking as a full back for the 23's and England youth teams so there may be something in it. However there is another part of me that thinks pace is rarely stifled, you are either quick or not. We will see I suppose.

Kenny can be a solid defender and might surprise a few by getting forward more but thats my one concern. It's what differentiates Arnold from his presently. I think Kenny is the better defender and knows the position better, a better tackler, better in the air. However Arnold goes past players and that skill has elevated him so far.

Ha.

Not like me to disagree with you mate but I'm the opposite. I think Gomez is the one with the larger gap in quality. Think the 2 FBs, whilst completely different in styles and skillset, are a lot closer. Granted, AA is a couple of age groups below Kenny so you have to give him credit for that.

I do agree that, ideally, Kenny could do with having a little bit more pace in him, but I've seen equally slow full backs have very good careers, such as Gary Neville.

I also think it's very unfair to compare the two players based on their performances when given an opportunity last season. Kenny in the Allardyce regime is a million miles away from playing for a confident free flowing Liverpool.

 

[messymascot]

Ha.

Not like me to disagree with you mate but I'm the opposite. I think Gomez is the one with the larger gap in quality. Think the 2 FBs, whilst completely different in styles and skillset, are a lot closer. Granted, AA is a couple of age groups below Kenny so you have to give him credit for that.

I do agree that, ideally, Kenny could do with having a little bit more pace in him, but I've seen equally slow full backs have very good careers, such as Gary Neville.

I also think it's very unfair to compare the two players based on their performances when given an opportunity last season. Kenny in the Allardyce regime is a million miles away from playing for a confident free flowing Liverpool.

Gary Neville is the player that Kenny reminds me of not quite talk enough to be a centre back but could do a job there also decent going forward without being mind blowing. I think he might have been better served going out on loan to get games but learning under Silva might also be beneficial.

 

[Lanolin]

Disagree mate with a lot of that mate. Yes we're playing a lot more internationals but I don't agree that 5=20 now. Also the reason that so many young players are getting a chance now is because there is a huge lack in quality for a whole age group covering about 4/5 years. We had a very settled team for about 7/8 years when it was very hard to break into. Towards the end of that era, young players like Barkley, Sterling, Stones and Dele Alli broke through, because there was that vacuum in quality players abioe them. But they were hardly handing out 20 caps like sweets as you are suggesting.

At the moment we have a manager who is trying out a lot of young players and there will be lots who get 3/4/5 caps as he has a look at them.

As regards Jags and Baines. Those players at their best were top drawer, and I'd be delighted to have them in our team now. They were certainly "top 4" players in their prime and to suggest we need to have better than them to move forward I think is doing them a disservice.

I guess you've probably already looked but 2 of the 3 right backs who earned more than 50 England caps were Gary Neville and Phil Neal. If Kenny turns out to be even half as good as them I'd be happy. As for getting England caps himself, not in a back 3 he won't. But if we have a manager that reverts to a back 4 and Kenny develops as I hope, then I can see him getting quite a few caps in the future. whether that be as many as 50 I doubt very much.

I certainly don't mean to do Jagielka and Baines a disservice, far from it, they'd without doubt be in the best XI I've seen at Everton in my lifetime.

The point i'm making has been a bit mangled because we're focusing on the caps but all I was saying is I want players 'good enough to get' 50 caps. I'm not interested whether someone actually does or not, just that nobody would think it a travesty if they did. If we want to be in the top 4, then pretty much all of our first choice players have to be as good as Baines and Jagielka have been, I just don't really think there's an argument to be had there. If we could only finish 5th at best with a back 4 including Baines, Jagielka and Coleman then I don't think it's a particularly controversial view to say that if we have players of lesser quality replacing them we're highly unlikely to move up the league.

As Nymzee said above, from what I've seen of Kenny at senior level, he just doesn't look good enough to be an England international, and therefore doesn't look good enough to be first choice for a side chasing honours. He was an outstanding junior and looks competent at PL level, but I think Catcher summed it up well above, he just doesn't look quick/athletic enough to be a genuinely top drawer full back.

I've said to you before, look at when the vast majority of the current England squad made their senior international debut. 13 of the 20 outfield players in the current squad had played for England by 22, 4 of the other 7 had to work their way up from teams outside the PL, meaning only 3 out of 20 were at a PL club and not playing for England at that age. The stats are there for all to see, players who haven't fully broken into their club's first team by then don't often go onto be top class. It can happen, but it's getting rarer. That was my original point.

 

[Barnfred 55]

I certainly don't mean to do Jagielka and Baines a disservice, far from it, they'd without doubt be in the best XI I've seen at Everton in my lifetime.

The point i'm making has been a bit mangled because we're focusing on the caps but all I was saying is I want players 'good enough to get' 50 caps. I'm not interested whether someone actually does or not, just that nobody would think it a travesty if they did. If we want to be in the top 4, then pretty much all of our first choice players have to be as good as Baines and Jagielka have been, I just don't really think there's an argument to be had there. If we could only finish 5th at best with a back 4 including Baines, Jagielka and Coleman then I don't think it's a particularly controversial view to say that if we have players of lesser quality replacing them we're highly unlikely to move up the league.

As Nymzee said above, from what I've seen of Kenny at senior level, he just doesn't look good enough to be an England international, and therefore doesn't look good enough to be first choice for a side chasing honours. He was an outstanding junior and looks competent at PL level, but I think Catcher summed it up well above, he just doesn't look quick/athletic enough to be a genuinely top drawer full back.

I've said to you before, look at when the vast majority of the current England squad made their senior international debut. 13 of the 20 outfield players in the current squad had played for England by 22, 4 of the other 7 had to work their way up from teams outside the PL, meaning only 3 out of 20 were at a PL club and not playing for England at that age. The stats are there for all to see, players who haven't fully broken into their club's first team don't often go onto be top class. It can happen, but it's getting rarer. That was my original point.

If you had made that post originally I probably would have given it a like rather than raise the question over the caps.

I still believe it's wrong to judge Kenny on the spell under Allardyce. If he's lucky enough to get a run of games under Silva and doesn't impress, then fair enough. But even if he does well he's not going to replace Seamus as first choice (assuming Seamus get's his mojo back) any time soon. But if we have good cup runs and qualify for Europe next season, as Seamus get's more niggles as he gets older Kenny should still get decent game time. Look at Trippier. He's 27, had to bide his time at Spurs until Walker left, and then became, IMO, the best right back in the whole world cup.

 

[Westend Blue]

TAA is hugely underrated in his crossing and actual technique if Kenny can approach that level of ability on the ball then he will be Coleman’s Replacement

 

[Mitch Ward's Minder]

I think also last year, eagerness of youth was sometimes Kenny's downfall in his decision making, i.e. jumping into and not winning loose balls and exposing the flank. I think if he can work on his defensive game a bit more you could say he would be similar in style to G Nev as mentioned earlier. But if he was going to play internationally, he'd only be picking up probably 2 token caps at best. I'd like to be proved wrong however.