Hilary Benn Sacked From The Shadow Cabinet - wider political debate

[Mountfield1985]

The linear thinking from all involved is so unhealthy, and the party is eating itself. You're either branded a "radical left-wing cultist" or a "blairite traitor son of Thatcher", and that's that.

I like Corbyn and agree with him on most domestic issues, but have been so disappointed in the first year of his leadership and the lack of nous that he and McDonnell have showed. I'm desperate for them to start playing the game. McDonnell defying Clive Lewis on trident yesterday is a perfect example of how they simply can't. They know how unpopular scrapping trident would be, they could never ever get that policy through, why create further division at a time like this? Trident was even intentionally ignored at the conference because it is so overwhelmingy backed by unions and the delegates. Pick. Your. Battles.

But equally, i'm disgusted by the PLP and the right of the party. Owen Smith was every bit as unelectable as Corbyn and I think Labour would have even less chance under a centrist/right of centre manifesto.

The party is in bits, and I really can't see a way out.

Rip it up and start again!

 

[Pienaar's gloves]

Its just sad to see the Labour party being torn apart by a guy who shoiuld have never been put on the ballot paper!

He won.

As you keep pointing out in the Brexit thread that Leave won (to counter any argument you can't engage with), it's a bit hypocritical to moan about a man being on the ballot paper when he had the support of 60%+ members of the Labour Party.

 

[Toffeelover]

Those quotes - or deliberate misquotes, if you are citing Tubey as a source - have nothing to do with the quote at hand, though.

Ellman stood up in the Commons and praised the execution of a quadriplegic, almost blind man and those who happened to be nearby him as they left a religious service. The assassination was both illegal and stupid, given that Hamas have been demonstrably stronger ever since it happened. If you, Tubey, pete or whoever can find a speech by Corbyn where he praises the blowing-up of people leaving a religious service, then by all means post it.



No, I am saying that since she bravely took up her place in the vanguard on behalf of the working class all of that has come to pass; she only voted for bits of it (though she supported a government that did almost all of it).

regarding your first post, in various speeches and visits JC has shown his support fro regimes which have committed actions which are alien to the views he expresses and yet does not condemn.

Onto the second post, so Ellman is not guilty of all those itmes you attributed to her, surely then you should have been more careful with facts.

I think you are very like Jc and his cohorts, you follow a white line and nothing must allow you to waver from that, in doing so you turn a blind eye or ignore items which do not suit your agenda, sad really that you cannot be more circumspect.

However I respect your views even though I may disagree as I would hope you respect others.

 

[magicjuan]

Easily lost arnt you when your new Labour movement gets 9 years of power in government then spout about how good Jezza is - I would have thought businesses were ready to ship out after that Macdonald speech the stock market tumbled yesterday I wonder why!

I am glad interlectuals are doing the Brexit and not that angry mob!

You need to calm yourself down. I didn't understand what you had posted, perhaps you should be clearer in your comments.

As for new labour they lost 4-5m voters over that period because they turned away from their core support, UKIP gained the majority of them. I understand that. I also understand that they were a party within a party, they prided themselves on it too. Champagne socialism eh? The reason they were voted in was more to do with 17 years of ever evolving laissez faire capitalism under the tories and the hope that a labour government would create a fairer society, repealing anti union laws etc. Instead they followed the conservative spending plans and shifted to right wing ideologies the longer they went on. They forgot to listen to the people even to the point of lying and going to war on a whim and crusade. So don't entertain the thought I don't understand.

The stock market tumbled mainly due to the American election and Deutsche bank being fined by the US.

As for your 'would have thought' comment, maybe you're just looking for demons where there aren't any, clouded by media and the entire spin on anything remotely Corbyn/McDonnell (if that's who you were referring to?)

 

[Toffeelover]

I'll say it again, within a decade the Labour Party will look upon the white working class the same way the Democrats do white southerners. Both forgetting their party was set up to represent those same people.

I look back to when I did l;ve in walton, the MP was a fella called

Mate, will you please read what Corbyn has said first. He is the most pro-working class leader imaginable.

Have to disagree on that, he is focussed on his own ideal and nothing else, everything is being pushed to forward and promote them. Look at the mess yesterday when Lewis's speech on Trident was interfered with. As for Trident, JC wants to kill it and sod the thousands of jobs etc tied up in that so where is his support for the working class, could not give a toss TBH.

 

[magicjuan]

The linear thinking from all involved is so unhealthy, and the party is eating itself. You're either branded a "radical left-wing cultist" or a "blairite traitor son of Thatcher", and that's that.

I like Corbyn and agree with him on most domestic issues, but have been so disappointed in the first year of his leadership and the lack of nous that he and McDonnell have showed. I'm desperate for them to start playing the game. McDonnell defying Clive Lewis on trident yesterday is a perfect example of how they simply can't. They know how unpopular scrapping trident would be, they could never ever get that policy through, why create further division at a time like this? Trident was even intentionally ignored at the conference because it is so overwhelmingy backed by unions and the delegates. Pick. Your. Battles.

But equally, i'm disgusted by the PLP and the right of the party. Owen Smith was every bit as unelectable as Corbyn and I think Labour would have even less chance under a centrist/right of centre manifesto.

The party is in bits, and I really can't see a way out.

Rip it up and start again!

I genuinely defend Corbyn because he has become the most vilified man in politics in my lifetime, undeservedly, while others, guilty of greater undemocratic crimes, get off scott free.

I believe the main reason that he hasn't played the game is twofold, firstly, it isn't a game that has to be played, the westminster bubble is self feeding and his rhetoric is threatening that, he has tried consistently not to be drawn into the ego trips and name calling that allows the career politicians avoid their responsibilities to the electorate and lets them continue with their self serving practices.

Secondly, he has had to contend with those careerists within the labour party who put themselves way ahead of maintaining an opposition. The timing of the 'coup' is testament to that, straight after Brexit, when a concerted effort should have been launched by a united party to tackle a conservative party in disarray. It could have waited, if they were so determined, until conference season.

Given all the distractions it is no wonder that an organised approach hasn't been laid out. Where the blame for that lies is what is creating the arguments.

 

[Toffeelover]

Champagne Socialists they were called, and expelled, despite the support of a large portion of the city at the time.

then came Blair et al, in suits, drinking champagne..... a party within a party...champions of the right.

blair, Thatcher's greatest achievement.

How on earth did you come by that. Blair was his own man and had his own ideas really quite far away from Thatcher but then we all have our own opinions.

 

[Toffeelover]

You need to calm yourself down. I didn't understand what you had posted, perhaps you should be clearer in your comments.

As for new labour they lost 4-5m voters over that period because they turned away from their core support, UKIP gained the majority of them. I understand that. I also understand that they were a party within a party, they prided themselves on it too. Champagne socialism eh? The reason they were voted in was more to do with 17 years of ever evolving laissez faire capitalism under the tories and the hope that a labour government would create a fairer society, repealing anti union laws etc. Instead they followed the conservative spending plans and shifted to right wing ideologies the longer they went on. They forgot to listen to the people even to the point of lying and going to war on a whim and crusade. So don't entertain the thought I don't understand.

The stock market tumbled mainly due to the American election and Deutsche bank being fined by the US.

As for your 'would have thought' comment, maybe you're just looking for demons where there aren't any, clouded by media and the entire spin on anything remotely Corbyn/McDonnell (if that's who you were referring to?)

So UKIP were offering those folk what Labour were not. So if they preferred UKIP what were that core support looking for? And are Labour offering it now?

 

[Toffeelover]

The linear thinking from all involved is so unhealthy, and the party is eating itself. You're either branded a "radical left-wing cultist" or a "blairite traitor son of Thatcher", and that's that.

I like Corbyn and agree with him on most domestic issues, but have been so disappointed in the first year of his leadership and the lack of nous that he and McDonnell have showed. I'm desperate for them to start playing the game. McDonnell defying Clive Lewis on trident yesterday is a perfect example of how they simply can't. They know how unpopular scrapping trident would be, they could never ever get that policy through, why create further division at a time like this? Trident was even intentionally ignored at the conference because it is so overwhelmingy backed by unions and the delegates. Pick. Your. Battles.

But equally, i'm disgusted by the PLP and the right of the party. Owen Smith was every bit as unelectable as Corbyn and I think Labour would have even less chance under a centrist/right of centre manifesto.

The party is in bits, and I really can't see a way out.

Rip it up and start again!

Good post. About ripping it up, they should look at the fringe ideas and consider are they worth an almighty fight, Trident as you mention is one. FFS keep building the subs and missiles they are a last resort and I doubt if the button would ever be pressed. But by dropping the plan confrontation with the unions is avoided , jobs saved, Barrow continues in a mild prosperity. Another one is the fracking issue just to chase a few local voters and get the green vote but again flies in the face of the GMB! If this is stopped how are the majority of homes to be warmed if there is no gas.

 

[tsubaki]

regarding your first post, in various speeches and visits JC has shown his support fro regimes which have committed actions which are alien to the views he expresses and yet does not condemn.

This is a typical anti-Corbyn statement. Corbyn has supported Hamas / Hezbollah / Iran / Russia, Hamas / Hezbollah / Iran / Russia have done bad things, ergo Corbyn has done bad things. There is a world of difference between expressing support for someone on one issue (which may or may not be connected with the "bad thing being" criticized) and openly praising the extrajudicial execution of someone like Yassin whilst knowing that at least half the people killed in the strike were totally innocent.

Onto the second post, so Ellman is not guilty of all those itmes you attributed to her, surely then you should have been more careful with facts.

I think you are very like Jc and his cohorts, you follow a white line and nothing must allow you to waver from that, in doing so you turn a blind eye or ignore items which do not suit your agenda, sad really that you cannot be more circumspect.

However I respect your views even though I may disagree as I would hope you respect others.

She isn't "not guilty" of the things attributed to her. She voted for Iraq (and against an investigation into it), voted for tuition fees (when Labour were in power), and went along with the rest (all of which were brought into being New Labour). She rebelled a maximum of 1.4% of votes under New Labour - mostly in terms of changes to Parliament.

 

[Toffeelover]

This is a typical anti-Corbyn statement. Corbyn has supported Hamas / Hezbollah / Iran / Russia, Hamas / Hezbollah / Iran / Russia have done bad things, ergo Corbyn has done bad things. There is a world of difference between expressing support for someone on one issue (which may or may not be connected with the "bad thing being" criticized) and openly praising the extrajudicial execution of someone like Yassin whilst knowing that at least half the people killed in the strike were totally innocent.



She isn't "not guilty" of the things attributed to her. She voted for Iraq (and against an investigation into it), voted for tuition fees (when Labour were in power), and went along with the rest (all of which were brought into being New Labour). She rebelled a maximum of 1.4% of votes under New Labour - mostly in terms of changes to Parliament.

1st post But did he ever condemn those regimes where he has expresses support, for their killings and the terrible treatment meted out to a great number of their citizens?

2nd post. Then there must have been many more Labour MPs who did the same yet you do not mention them but single out Ellman.

Always two sides to a card!

 

[peteblue]

How the heck did she get away with that?

Probably the same way she did when she sent her son to a private school.......do as I say not as I do......

 

[Toffeelover]

Probably the same way she did when she sent her son to a private school.......do as I say not as I do......

Seems to be a hidden motto of a lot of Labour politicos. Look at Meacher left a property empire worth over 5 mill and Vaz said to be worth 4 mill.
Must be others. Where is the socialism for these.

 

[neil999]

tbh alot of the working class labour vote is a little bit racist/thick/wants a scape goat..hence the ukip vote

 

[neil999]

Probably the same way she did when she sent her son to a private school.......do as I say not as I do......

yeah but..apparently her son was black