Hilary Benn Sacked From The Shadow Cabinet - wider political debate

[dandydan]

Mate, will you please read what Corbyn has said first. He is the most pro-working class leader imaginable.

See below.

tbh alot of the working class labour vote is a little bit racist/thick/wants a scape goat..hence the ukip vote

 

[tsubaki]

1st post But did he ever condemn those regimes where he has expresses support, for their killings and the terrible treatment meted out to a great number of their citizens?

Yes, he has.

2nd post. Then there must have been many more Labour MPs who did the same yet you do not mention them but single out Ellman.

Always two sides to a card!

Perhaps that is because we were talking about Ellman?

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

Labour Party is an utter mess

At least a decade more of Tories while they sort their shizzle out at this rate

 

[neil999]

See below.

to add to that, most people just vote for whoever helps them the most...hence the north/scotland/wales being traditional labour heartlands

most them arent bothered about gay rights /asylum seekers etc

im not saying this is right btw, this is just how it is for MOST people

 

[Mountfield1985]

I genuinely defend Corbyn because he has become the most vilified man in politics in my lifetime, undeservedly, while others, guilty of greater undemocratic crimes, get off scott free.

I believe the main reason that he hasn't played the game is twofold, firstly, it isn't a game that has to be played, the westminster bubble is self feeding and his rhetoric is threatening that, he has tried consistently not to be drawn into the ego trips and name calling that allows the career politicians avoid their responsibilities to the electorate and lets them continue with their self serving practices.

Secondly, he has had to contend with those careerists within the labour party who put themselves way ahead of maintaining an opposition. The timing of the 'coup' is testament to that, straight after Brexit, when a concerted effort should have been launched by a united party to tackle a conservative party in disarray. It could have waited, if they were so determined, until conference season.

Given all the distractions it is no wonder that an organised approach hasn't been laid out. Where the blame for that lies is what is creating the arguments.

It absolutely is if you want to be elected primeminister. There is no way of getting around that. He and McDonnell have to be more media savvy to be taken seriously. For example, yes we know Esther McVey is a stain on humanity, but you can't *literally* go around calling fellow politicians "stains on humanity" like McDonnell did.

Without wanting to turn the argument to Brexit (and i'm by no means blaming it on JC) - But "playing the game" would have been passionately backing Labours stance to remain, not eye-rolling his way through the whole campaign. He lost a lot of respect from a lot of people there. I know you will say unfairly so, but it has happened nontheless.

I agree with most of your post. JC is a good man and he does get a horrendous time of it.

But a lot of Corbyn supporters have complete tunnel vision and are refusing to accept he can do any wrong whatsoever. After the year Labour has had, and given that he will most likely be leading us into the next GE, I think it is only right that we demand much more from our party leader.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

It absolutely is if you want to be elected primeminister. There is no way of getting around that. He and McDonnell have to be more media savvy to be taken seriously. For example, yes we know Esther McVey is a stain on humanity, but you can't *literally* go around calling fellow politicians "stains on humanity" like McDonnell did.

I honestly don't think he even wants to be Prime Minister, and I don't think the people who support him even care about the party getting into power

This is about getting the Labour Party "back to what it's supposed to be", which I can only assume is a Party that always languishes in second place to a much more proactive and savvy Conservative Party because it's seen as being too "radical"

They seem happy with that, for now, but 10-15 years of getting hammered by the Tories will eventually get them away from that thought process and they might actually start the ball rolling to become electable again.

Until then, the poor can continue to suffer under the yolk of an uncaring Tory government while the people who are supposed to be fighting their corner instead focuses their time on building an exclusory club house for themselves and their mates

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

Electing Corbyn as leader was a deeply self indulgent thing to do, by a party membership who seemingly care more about principle than winning elections

On one hand, that's a noble folly to pursue, on the other hand the most helpless are getting trampled on and desperately need a Labour Party in power that will actually start putting some legislation through that will ease their suffering, and that's not going to happen anytime soon with Corbyn as leader, principled and dedicated though he is

 

[The Esk]

Seems to be a hidden motto of a lot of Labour politicos. Look at Meacher left a property empire worth over 5 mill and Vaz said to be worth 4 mill.
Must be others. Where is the socialism for these.

I find this an odd comment. Assuming the wealth is created by fair means what relevance does someone's wealth have in relation to their political beliefs?

 

[Mountfield1985]

Electing Corbyn as leader was a deeply self indulgent thing to do, by a party membership who seemingly care more about principle than winning elections

On one hand, that's a noble folly to pursue, on the other hand the most helpless are getting trampled on and desperately need a Labour Party in power that will actually start putting some legislation through that will ease their suffering, and that's not going to happen anytime soon with Corbyn as leader, principled and dedicated though he is

I agree with this.

But perhaps a tad harsh on the membership. I think the vast majority of us want the same thing, a Labour government. Most of my pro-Corbyn friends do. They've seen the rallys, they've seen their twitter feeds and they're convinced he can win.

It's a sad situation, because as you say it is a noble pursuit to try to find Labours true identity again, but it is the poor, the homeless, the disabled and the vulnerable who will suffer while they are figuring it out.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

I agree with this.

But perhaps a tad harsh on the membership. I think the vast majority of us want the same thing, a Labour government. Most of my pro-Corbyn friends do. They've seen the rallys, they've seen their twitter feeds and they're convinced he can win.

It's a sad situation, because as you say it is a noble pursuit to try to find Labours true identity again, but it is the poor, the homeless, the disabled and the vulnerable who will suffer while they are figuring it out.

My Dad is a big Corbyn supporter and absolutely scoffs at the idea of getting into power, it doesn't even factor into it for him, and from what he tells me about what his compatriots at meetings are saying, he's not alone in that sentiment

 

[neil999]

I agree with this.

But perhaps a tad harsh on the membership. I think the vast majority of us want the same thing, a Labour government. Most of my pro-Corbyn friends do. They've seen the rallys, they've seen their twitter feeds and they're convinced he can win.

It's a sad situation, because as you say it is a noble pursuit to try to find Labours true identity again, but it is the poor, the homeless, the disabled and the vulnerable who will suffer while they are figuring it out.

yep, there are only 2 ways forward now...hope he resigns, or just wait it out till next general election

they have to show some kind of unity now tho

 

[Milkman]

It absolutely is if you want to be elected primeminister. There is no way of getting around that. He and McDonnell have to be more media savvy to be taken seriously. For example, yes we know Esther McVey is a stain on humanity, but you can't *literally* go around calling fellow politicians "stains on humanity" like McDonnell did.

Without wanting to turn the argument to Brexit (and i'm by no means blaming it on JC) - But "playing the game" would have been passionately backing Labours stance to remain, not eye-rolling his way through the whole campaign. He lost a lot of respect from a lot of people there. I know you will say unfairly so, but it has happened nontheless.

I agree with most of your post. JC is a good man and he does get a horrendous time of it.

But a lot of Corbyn supporters have complete tunnel vision and are refusing to accept he can do any wrong whatsoever. After the year Labour has had, and given that he will most likely be leading us into the next GE, I think it is only right that we demand much more from our party leader.

Sadly, you're probably right on this bit – but that's not to say that's how it should be. A lot of Corbyn's popularity is down to his disdain for the media and the perception that politics is a game. I voted for him both times because it's a step in the right direction. You have to start somewhere.

 

[Mountfield1985]

My Dad is a big Corbyn supporter and absolutely scoffs at the idea of getting into power, it doesn't even factor into it for him, and from what he tells me about what his compatriots at meetings are saying, he's not alone in that sentiment

Well that's worrying! I haven't seen too much of that at our meetings, to be fair. (Bootle)

 

[tsubaki]

Electing Corbyn as leader was a deeply self indulgent thing to do, by a party membership who seemingly care more about principle than winning elections

On one hand, that's a noble folly to pursue, on the other hand the most helpless are getting trampled on and desperately need a Labour Party in power that will actually start putting some legislation through that will ease their suffering, and that's not going to happen anytime soon with Corbyn as leader, principled and dedicated though he is

This is the oft-repeated trope that keeps being come up with, but please look how actually correct it is.

Corbyn won because, in the two leadership elections he faced, he was the one most likely to win a general election out of all the candidates in those elections. Even if you expand the field to encompass the self-described "big beasts" in the Labour establishment, he would still probably have more chance of winning than any of them (which is why they did not stand, either the first or second time).

The idea that there is a viable alternative for Labour to turn to right now is daft; there is either taking a gamble on Corbyn (who for all his faults has at least boosted Party membership and engagement, and promoted debates on actual policy) or surrendering to the evident failures that are the Progress faction in the PLP (who, lets not forget, lost the last two elections, who lost Scotland, who would probably lose Wales next, who cut party membership in half, who built up huge debts and who ran the party into the state whereby Corbyn could win a leadership election in it).

 

[Mountfield1985]

Sadly, you're probably right on this bit – but that's not to say that's how it should be. A lot of Corbyn's popularity is down to his disdain for the media and the perception that politics is a game. I voted for him both times because it's a step in the right direction. You have to start somewhere.

Yes it makes him very popular among Labour's core support. Every poll and every indication possible points to it making him worryingly unpopular in huge areas of the country.