Hilary Benn Sacked From The Shadow Cabinet - wider political debate

[magicjuan]

Cameron called the referendum to appease half of his own euro sceptic party. Several big name tories were at the front of the campaign to leave along with Farage who was the leader of a far right breakaway group of tories.

I think there is plenty of ammo to make the government accountable for this.

As for the second part I'm not character assassinating JC or letting others influence my view point of him, I have said previously that a lot of his policies have merit (if cash was unlimited at least) and his heart appears to be in the right place, I was hoping he was going to moderate his tone but he hasn't. The fact that he can't compromise even behind closed doors with 200 odd of his own MP's shows what he is and has always been, a protesting backbencher.

He's popular with unionists (trade) and with core socialists, I don't think that's enough to win him a general election especially since Scotland is all SNP now.

See cash is unlimited, QE has proven that, all it needs is a PM with policies to redirect that in a more fair society.

Up t'north there is genuine angst at being abandoned under successive governments. Too much focus is placed on Corbyn himself, he's no John the Baptist, but obviously the message he delivers is what people want to hear as a change from the trickle down corporatist messages that were fundamental lies. So why is the message appealing and why isn't that being attacked, because the system knows that people want to hear that, so they attack the personalities instead, attack the messenger.

Globally it has been carried out against any potential socialist movement, they even created a war to bring down the Sandinista.

Funny that the SNP have very socialist policies and they stood against labour too....

 

[ToffeeTim]

Don't be silly.

He's a fairly moderate social democrat.

No he isn't. Not in the real world anyway. He might be in student rallies.

 

[Blue 1]

No he isn't. Not in the real world anyway. He might be in student rallies.

If you think he's "off the scale extreme left" then you've no grasp of politics.

I'll agree he's further to the left than the majority of the country are likely to find palatable though.

 

[ToffeeTim]

If you think he's "off the scale extreme left" then you've no grasp of politics.

Off the scale no. But not moderate either. He's hard left. He's a marxist not a social democrat.

 

[Blue 1]

Off the scale no. But not moderate either. He's hard left. He's a marxist not a social democrat.

Nope. He's not espousing Marxist policies.

 

[roydo]

Up t'north there is genuine angst at being abandoned under successive governments.

Think quite a few in Cornwall, South Wales, Somerset, Dover, might share the same feeling.

Dont make the mistake that many do that anywhere south of Cheshire is swimming in milk and honey.

Whether Corbyn can appeal to normal folk, or "hard working families", (ugh), is a different matter. I personally, have my doubts.

 

[magicjuan]

Think quite a few in Cornwall, South Wales, Somerset, Dover, might share the same feeling.

Dont make the mistake that many do that anywhere south of Cheshire is swimming in milk and honey.

Whether Corbyn can appeal to normal folk, or "hard working families", (ugh), is a different matter. I personally, have my doubts.

I used up north because there was reference to the south in a previous post.

I am well aware that there is a layer of society the length and breadth that have fallen most foul of austerity, including London and the south east.

It is about galvanising and mobiliding these people to effect change as most of them gave up on politics a long time since, they had more pressing things to deal with like keeping their businesses afloat, feeding the families and heating their homes.

 

[roydo]

I used up north because there was reference to the south in a previous post.

I am well aware that there is a layer of society the length and breadth that have fallen most foul of austerity, including London and the south east.

It is about galvanising and mobiliding these people to effect change as most of them gave up on politics a long time since, they had more pressing things to deal with like keeping their businesses afloat, feeding the families and heating their homes.

Soz.

And the rest of the post is Corbyns problem. Most folk just rub along. Me included.

It must be frustrating as hell for activists who are met with a wall of apathy. Like I take an interest, but my experience of, to use a tired cliche, of the "Left Wing" was not a pleasant one in the 70s. I applaud Corbyns base aspirations, (who wouldnt?), its his supporters seemingly demonic hatred and disdain of anyone who is not a fully paid up member their crusade that I find unpleasant.

One example. I do not see anyone who disagrees with me on politics, or votes for a party that I dont as "Scum". That, unfortunately has been a base response from some who support him to those who dont. Be it Blairite Scum or Tory Scum.

Not you btw. You are nice!.

 

[tsubaki]

Peter Oborne writes:

As he explicitly set out in his hugely important speech this afternoon, Corbyn has broken from the consensus politics of the last quarter of a century. From the rise of Tony Blair in 1994 until the general election of 2015, there was – to use Corbyn’s potent phrase from Liverpool today – a "political stitch up" between the main political parties.

There was an unspoken agreement between Tories and Labour that they would only work within very constrained parameters. The Cameron Conservative Party and the Blairite Labour Party both advocated near identical spending and taxation targets. They both supported the marketisation of the public sector. They both agreed the same neoliberal economic model.

In foreign policy terms, both main parties accepted British subordination to the United States of America, and therefore a neoconservative doctrine of armed intervention in order to advance the interests of the West in the Middle East and elsewhere.

Nobody can claim that these twin doctrines - neoliberalism at home and neoconservatism abroad - were successful. They led to debacles in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, as well as the banking crash of 2008. But anyone who challenged these two orthodoxies was politically marginalised.

This afternoon, Corbyn became the first leader of a mainstream political party to directly challenge this paradigm, with his assertion that "the old model is broken and we’re in a new era". Corbyn deserves almost unlimited credit for offering an alternative.

Hard to argue with any of it, tbh.

 

[magicjuan]

Soz.

And the rest of the post is Corbyns problem. Most folk just rub along. Me included.

It must be frustrating as hell for activists who are met with a wall of apathy. Like I take an interest, but my experience of, to use a tired cliche, of the "Left Wing" was not a pleasant one in the 70s. I applaud Corbyns base aspirations, (who wouldnt?), its his supporters seemingly demonic hatred and disdain of anyone who is not a fully paid up member their crusade that I find unpleasant.

One example. I do not see anyone who disagrees with me on politics, or votes for a party that I dont as "Scum". That, unfortunately has been a base response from some who support him to those who dont. Be it Blairite Scum or Tory Scum.

Not you btw. You are nice!.

Just out of curiosity, what experiences have you had personally of these supporters and their demonic hatred?

I understand that kith and kin tend to draw like minds so experiences of that kind tend to be from casual acquaintances

 

[The binman chronicles]

Hard to argue with any of it, tbh.

Blair and Cameron were successful because they followed that middle band of politics trying to appeal to all people. Labour won three general elections and would have probably won a fourth if they had appeared a bit tougher on immigration and Brown hadn't called that bigoted* old lady a bigot. (*just jesting there)

The problem is that the old left wing couldn't ignore their social consciences of how they were turned from a protest party into one that governs. To do this they had to compromise to appeal to middle England, this is where Blair/Mandy and Brown understood to enact any social fairness you have to be in power to do so. By offering an alternative (or if you will, regression back into the party that spent 18 years out of government) all they are doing is blowing hot air out. Nothing to be applauded here at all.

Sentiment is wonderful, I would love a world without inequality, to have social justice, an end to nuclear weapons and famine and natural disasters and also let's have world peace while we are at it. It's how we deliver that manifesto is what counts, what is achievable? I think JC is like a kid at Christmas (strange that given the initials... ) who just has too many presents to open and he doesn't know where to start, so he opened them all at once.

If he goes after big business, big business will leave and let's see what that does to the tax income streams when jobs are lost.

His policies have been done before, it was called communism and look away if you don't want to see the result... (it failed!) Labour need to stop the trade unionists selecting their next leader, cause in 2020 they will be looking for another and hopefully this time they won't transport the party back to 1983.

 

[Joey66]

I thought you were joking tbh.

The program he's offering is to the right of pre-Smith Labour.

Yes under Foot he easily got elected????

 

[Blue 1]

Yes under Foot he easily got elected????

Not the point. He's not offering anything like as left wing a programme as Foot did, anyway.

 

[peteblue]

Nice to see Jeremy singing the Red Flag, pity he doesn't know the words to the National Anthem......

 

[peteblue]

A lip reader has just published the words Jeremy sang.......

The working class can kiss my arse
I got the foreman's job at last.
You can tell old Joe I'm off the dole
He can stick his Red Flag up his 'ole!.

Sounds a bit off to me like.......