Hilary Benn Sacked From The Shadow Cabinet - wider political debate

[roydo]

Just out of curiosity, what experiences have you had personally of these supporters and their demonic hatred?

I understand that kith and kin tend to draw like minds so experiences of that kind tend to be from casual acquaintances

Personally? None.

 

[Joey66]

Not the point. He's not offering anything like as left wing a programme as Foot did, anyway.

Yes, and Foot was a great orator - Jezzas not!

 

[davek]

Deluded. Labour lost because Milliband was seen as too left wing, hence the title "Red Ed". At the time of the last election, most people down here genuinely thought he was far too radically left. The revisionism needed to think that Labour were "Tory light" is unbelievable. It only looks that way now because Corbyn is a Marxist lunatic, off the scale of extreme left.

Labour would've cruised the last election with a competent leader e.g. David Milliband, Umuna, Jarvis, Benn, Burnham. They lost because of their leader, not because their policies were too close to the Tories.

If Labour want to continue with Corbyn, they'll probably get less than 25% of the vote, and there will be a 150 seat Tory majority. People don't like or want socialism. Irresponsibly borrow, wastefully invest, then tax your heart out. It just doesn't resonate with middle income swing voters. Neither do the trade unions or uncontrolled immigration. Don't say you weren't warned. It is political suicide.

Labour lost last time for two reasons:

• they fell in with the austerity 'logic' of the Tories and so the party's natural constituency thought: "what's the point?'

• the media managed to persuade you southern softies that a vote for Labour was a vote for Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP

Corbyn is delivering an Old Labour programme. There's nothing too radical about it (unfortunately) and it will resonate with the population sick of the Tories IF the Judas's in the PLP get behind the LP leadership.

In any case: the next election will throw up a minority led government - so Corbyn really needs to make overtures now to the Welsh and Scots Nationalists as well as the Greens to make electoral pacts and cobble together a majority government.

 

[tsubaki]

Blair and Cameron were successful because they followed that middle band of politics trying to appeal to all people. Labour won three general elections and would have probably won a fourth if they had appeared a bit tougher on immigration and Brown hadn't called that bigoted* old lady a bigot. (*just jesting there)

The problem is that the old left wing couldn't ignore their social consciences of how they were turned from a protest party into one that governs. To do this they had to compromise to appeal to middle England, this is where Blair/Mandy and Brown understood to enact any social fairness you have to be in power to do so. By offering an alternative (or if you will, regression back into the party that spent 18 years out of government) all they are doing is blowing hot air out. Nothing to be applauded here at all.

Sentiment is wonderful, I would love a world without inequality, to have social justice, an end to nuclear weapons and famine and natural disasters and also let's have world peace while we are at it. It's how we deliver that manifesto is what counts, what is achievable? I think JC is like a kid at Christmas (strange that given the initials... ) who just has too many presents to open and he doesn't know where to start, so he opened them all at once.

If he goes after big business, big business will leave and let's see what that does to the tax income streams when jobs are lost.

His policies have been done before, it was called communism and look away if you don't want to see the result... (it failed!) Labour need to stop the trade unionists selecting their next leader, cause in 2020 they will be looking for another and hopefully this time they won't transport the party back to 1983.

"The centre ground" does not consist of selling off public assets cheaply, signing up to deals that our children will end up paying off, allowing our political representatives to enrich themselves and starting wars on idiotic pretexts. It only appears to be because the media insists that it is, just as it insists that what Corbyn represents is basically communism, even though much of his programme was something Tory governments between 1945 and 1979 argued for.

 

[tsubaki]

Labour lost last time for two reasons:

• they fell in with the austerity 'logic' of the Tories and so the party's natural constituency thought: "what's the point?'

• the media managed to persuade you southern softies that a vote for Labour was a vote for Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP

Corbyn is delivering an Old Labour programme. There's nothing too radical about it (unfortunately) and it will resonate with the population sick of the Tories IF the Judas's in the PLP get behind the LP leadership.

In any case: the next election will throw up a minority led government - so Corbyn really needs to make overtures now to the Welsh and Scots Nationalists as well as the Greens to make electoral pacts and cobble together a majority government.

I would add a third reason to this - Miliband spent very little, if any, time talking about his achievements of the nearly five years he was leader. He should really have spent every day reminding everyone of the time Cameron asked the Commons to vote on going to war allied to IS and al-Qaeda's Syrian faction; or how matey Dave was with Murdoch and his lackeys.

Instead he ate a bacon sandwich badly, and produced the worst menhir seen for the past six thousand years.

 

[Caolam]

See cash is unlimited, QE has proven that, all it needs is a PM with policies to redirect that in a more fair society.

Up t'north there is genuine angst at being abandoned under successive governments. Too much focus is placed on Corbyn himself, he's no John the Baptist, but obviously the message he delivers is what people want to hear as a change from the trickle down corporatist messages that were fundamental lies. So why is the message appealing and why isn't that being attacked, because the system knows that people want to hear that, so they attack the personalities instead, attack the messenger.

Globally it has been carried out against any potential socialist movement, they even created a war to bring down the Sandinista.

Funny that the SNP have very socialist policies and they stood against labour too....

Scottish Nationalists stand against the British Labour Party because they are nationalists. The clue is in the name.

 

[Blue 1]

Yes, and Foot was a great orator - Jezzas not!

Again, not the point. Throughout this entire thread you just move the goalposts everytime anyone says anything remotely pro-Corbyn. I was only arguing the point that he's not "off the scale extreme left". Nothing else. He's not a great orator, but he does, in fairness, have a knack of speaking in language people understand, but I think it's unlikely he'll win a general election. What do you want me to say? That he's the reincarnation of Stalin and eats Jewish babies?

 

[peteblue]

Labour lost last time for two reasons:

• they fell in with the austerity 'logic' of the Tories and so the party's natural constituency thought: "what's the point?'

• the media managed to persuade you southern softies that a vote for Labour was a vote for Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP

Corbyn is delivering an Old Labour programme. There's nothing too radical about it (unfortunately) and it will resonate with the population sick of the Tories IF the Judas's in the PLP get behind the LP leadership.

In any case: the next election will throw up a minority led government - so Corbyn really needs to make overtures now to the Welsh and Scots Nationalists as well as the Greens to make electoral pacts and cobble together a majority government.

I agree with both these points, plus the Ed'stone and the bacon sandwich........the SNP have really screwed Labour, moreso than UKIP.....the Tories will walk the next election, Corbyn will become history, the SNP will falter and someone, other than Corbyn, will lead the fightback.......

 

[tsubaki]

Scottish Nationalists stand against the British Labour Party because they are nationalists. The clue is in the name.

Yes, but their recent political success is because they have aped "old" Labour policies; there are considerable differences inside the party and if they ever achieved independence they would probably split within a year.

 

[The binman chronicles]

"The centre ground" does not consist of selling off public assets cheaply, signing up to deals that our children will end up paying off, allowing our political representatives to enrich themselves and starting wars on idiotic pretexts. It only appears to be because the media insists that it is, just as it insists that what Corbyn represents is basically communism, even though much of his programme was something Tory governments between 1945 and 1979 argued for.

I didn't say that they are perfect and yes same as in any government in the political spectrum, a lot of mistakes have been made. My text was just a broad wash on the centre ground has been most successful in recent years so why are labour going full left and scared to fight from the middle where they had success. (ok not communism left but for younger generations it may as well be as we haven't seen these policies for so long)

 

[peteblue]

Again, not the point. Throughout this entire thread you just move the goalposts everytime anyone says anything remotely pro-Corbyn. I was only arguing the point that he's not "off the scale extreme left". Nothing else. He's not a great orator, but he does, in fairness, have a knack of speaking in language people understand, but I think it's unlikely he'll win a general election. What do you want me to say? That he's the reincarnation of Stalin and eats Jewish babies?

He's not a bad lad, just a bit stupid and naive....his answer to any conflict between the West and Russia, or indeed any other conflict is 'let's all get together for a nice cup of tea and discuss it', which in itself is a wonderful approach, but it won't work which is a shame...........

 

[magicjuan]

Scottish Nationalists stand against the British Labour Party because they are nationalists. The clue is in the name.

Then the clue is in re read my post and find the context, it will lead you to the point.

It may help if you slow down your rapier like wit, give yourself time to digest the information...

 

[tsubaki]

I didn't say that they are perfect and yes same as in any government in the political spectrum, a lot of mistakes have been made. My text was just a broad wash on the centre ground has been most successful in recent years so why are labour going full left and scared to fight from the middle where they had success. (ok not communism left but for younger generations it may as well be as we haven't seen these policies for so long)

Labour were successful under Blair because of two main reasons:

i) the Tories under Major were widely hated, and the landslide of 1997 was of such a scale that one election was never going to overturn it
ii) New Labour as a strategic choice appeased the media, allowing them to break the law with near impunity (it wasn't until they hacked Prince William's phone that prosecutions took place) even though there was widespread evidence that they were actively corrupting public officials. In return, the media went along with much of what he wanted them to do - most obviously over Iraq.

The great fib of the past five years has been that Blair won because of his policies.

 

[Blue 1]

I agree with both these points, plus the Ed'stone and the bacon sandwich........the SNP have really screwed Labour, moreso than UKIP.....the Tories will walk the next election, Corbyn will become history, the SNP will falter and someone, other than Corbyn, will lead the fightback.......

Think you might not be too far wrong in all honesty, Pete. I doubt you'll agree but there's still the potential, however, for the Brexit fallout to make the Tories very unpopular indeed, depending on what sort of deal we come away with.

If Corbyn manages to shift the Overton window even slightly leftwards again though, he'll have achieved something, and will have improved the chances of his successor tenfold.

 

[peteblue]

Think you might not be too far wrong in all honesty, Pete. I doubt you'll agree but there's still the potential for the Brexit fallout to make the Tories very unpopular indeed, depending on what sort of deal we come away with.

It's an incredibly tricky action to deliver. If they do it well they deserve the plaudits, if they mess it up then...........