Hilary Benn Sacked From The Shadow Cabinet - wider political debate

[Moomin]

Labour lost last time for two reasons:

• they fell in with the austerity 'logic' of the Tories and so the party's natural constituency thought: "what's the point?'

• the media managed to persuade you southern softies that a vote for Labour was a vote for Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP

Corbyn is delivering an Old Labour programme. There's nothing too radical about it (unfortunately) and it will resonate with the population sick of the Tories IF the Judas's in the PLP get behind the LP leadership.

In any case: the next election will throw up a minority led government - so Corbyn really needs to make overtures now to the Welsh and Scots Nationalists as well as the Greens to make electoral pacts and cobble together a majority government.

 

[The binman chronicles]

Think you might not be too far wrong in all honesty, Pete. I doubt you'll agree but there's still the potential for the Brexit fallout to make the Tories very unpopular indeed, depending on what sort of deal we come away with.

This is very possible, but will it help labour or the lib dems...

 

[peteblue]

Think you might not be too far wrong in all honesty, Pete. I doubt you'll agree but there's still the potential, however, for the Brexit fallout to make the Tories very unpopular indeed, depending on what sort of deal we come away with.

If Corbyn manages to shift the Overton window even slightly leftwards again though, he'll have achieved something, and will have improved the chances of his successor tenfold.

It's all about the successor though. Corbyn hasnt got a chance.......the issue is about the next leader.....and it needs to be someone of substance who appeals to the country..........

 

[Blue 1]

This is very possible, but will it help labour or the lib dems...

Both.

 

[The binman chronicles]

Labour were successful under Blair because of two main reasons:

i) the Tories under Major were widely hated, and the landslide of 1997 was of such a scale that one election was never going to overturn it
ii) New Labour as a strategic choice appeased the media, allowing them to break the law with near impunity (it wasn't until they hacked Prince William's phone that prosecutions took place) even though there was widespread evidence that they were actively corrupting public officials. In return, the media went along with much of what he wanted them to do - most obviously over Iraq.

The great fib of the past five years has been that Blair won because of his policies.

I would say that Labour's success was down to Blair's personality, without which you won't get the media on side in the first place and the progressive mandate they managed to push through so quickly due to having such a large majority. Something that subsequent governments haven't had the benefit of.

I believe the Iraq war has tarnished the memories of the actual good policies that were put in place, especially the early ones.

 

[davek]

I would add a third reason to this - Miliband spent very little, if any, time talking about his achievements of the nearly five years he was leader. He should really have spent every day reminding everyone of the time Cameron asked the Commons to vote on going to war allied to IS and al-Qaeda's Syrian faction; or how matey Dave was with Murdoch and his lackeys.

Instead he ate a bacon sandwich badly, and produced the worst menhir seen for the past six thousand years.

He started out talking about taking on rapacious capitalism and capping the utility companies, but then lost his nerve and tacked back to the centre to 'prove' he could be trusted to balance budgets (in other words, cut as well as the Tories). No one bought him as authentic and he lost. The very last thing anyone can say about Corbyn is that he's inauthentic.

 

[davek]

I agree with both these points, plus the Ed'stone and the bacon sandwich........the SNP have really screwed Labour, moreso than UKIP.....the Tories will walk the next election, Corbyn will become history, the SNP will falter and someone, other than Corbyn, will lead the fightback.......

The Tories will be up to their knees in their own blood. The LP simply need to stay together and disciplined.

If Labour lose the next election it'll be because the Blairites refuse to countenance a PM coming from the left wing of the party.

 

[Joey66]

The Tories will be up to their knees in their own blood. The LP simply need to stay together and disciplined.

If Labour lose the next election it'll be because the Blairites refuse to countenance a PM coming from the left wing of the party.

UKIP will eat all the labour votes in the north Corbyn went against the Brexit votes that deserted the Labour Party in the referendrum no sense in it at all IMO?

 

[davek]

UKIP will eat all the labour votes in the north Corbyn went against the Brexit votes that deserted the Labour Party in the referendrum no sense in it at all IMO?

UKIP are finished. They've shot their fox. They were a single issue group and that issue is now resolved.

 

[neil999]

The Tories will be up to their knees in their own blood. The LP simply need to stay together and disciplined.

If Labour lose the next election it'll be because the Blairites refuse to countenance a PM coming from the left wing of the party.

Have a chat(if you can find any in Liverpool lol) with people who voted tory, honestly some of their reasoning is bizarre, it's connecting with these people who aren't interested in day to day politics that will swing the vote

 

[Joey66]

UKIP are finished. They've shot their fox. They were a single issue group and that issue is now resolved.

Shot the fox if Brexit goes Okish Corbyns speech today was installing a two finger salute to the out vote in the heartlands of Labour that voted out!

 

[hullefc]

It was also government policy for remain. As mentioned May was hidden away but not highlighted for her absence, Corbyn campaigned, some say unenthusiastically, I don't agree, and is basically blamed for the vote result on his own.

If you're prepared to, it is quite easy to see the hidden forces terrified by Corbyn and his popularity, doing everything they can to smear, undermine and trash his name. It happened to Wilson too and his infamous 'gnomes of Zurich' comment.

As MI5 officer Peter Wright revealed in Spycatcher, MI5 spied on Wilson because they deemed him a 'communist',and as such was a 'threat' to the established order. MI5 kept a file on Wilson and it was their policy to undermine Wilson and plotted to get rid of him.

"Meetings with Wilson were secretly recorded in 1976 by both the journalists (Penrose and Courtiour) weeks after his shock departure from Number 10.

“Wilson spoke darkly of two military coups which he said had been planned to overthrow his government in the late 1960s and in the mid 1970s,” Penrose writes.

Wilson told the journalists they “should investigate the forces that are threatening democratic countries like Britain.”

In his book, Peter Wright also tells of a plot to force Wilson’s resignation by MI5 agents who were convinced he was a Communist spy. Wright’s account is often dismissed as an exaggeration, but fresh evidence of plots surfaced in 2006.

Penrose says that witnesses confirm such plotting “wasn’t in the fevered imagination of an embittered ex-PM.” From Spycatcher and GBH to the Zinoviev letter - an emergent pattern and the real enemy within. July 15th. 2015.

 

[The binman chronicles]

UKIP are finished. They've shot their fox. They were a single issue group and that issue is now resolved.

Depends on a few things:

• When the next general election is and have the government even started the exit process yet
• If we exit but keep the common market and therefore freedom of movement stays then they will be back good as new campaigning to withdraw from that agreement.

They may be around for one or two more elections yet.

 

[The binman chronicles]

The Tories will be up to their knees in their own blood. The LP simply need to stay together and disciplined.

If Labour lose the next election it'll be because the Blairites refuse to countenance a PM coming from the left wing of the party.

The tories as a rule are generally more together than labour. They were backstabbing a few weeks ago but now everything is rosey again. There are much tougher tests for this government and it could lead to splits, but the fear of a left wing JC being PM will almost do the whips job for him.

Unfortunately the PLP is not going to be so together, even if they try and front it out now everyone still knows it's a front. The missing MP's at the conference for his speech says it all. I can't see where you get the confidence from that labour are even in the running.

The SNP will still control Scotland, Wales will be split. To have any chance of a Labour win they need to control both. You said in a previous post that the media convinced the public that a vote for labour was a vote for the SNP, what's changed there? Do you really think the majority would want a government driven by unionist and national interests? Not for me thanks the damage would be immense.

Just to make it clear i'm not a Tory and we all need to see a strong, unified labour party to apply pressure to the government and to even things out after years of conservative rule. I just can't vote for them while they are like this, it's a sad situation.

 

[magicjuan]

Depends on a few things:

• When the next general election is and have the government even started the exit process yet
• If we exit but keep the common market and therefore freedom of movement stays then they will be back good as new campaigning to withdraw from that agreement.

They may be around for one or two more elections yet.

They need to reinvent themselves, the tories have to adopt their stance, which, while having the word 'independence' in their name leaves very little scope other than a great lurch rightwards. They may be around but their influence and appeal will be dissipated