Jonjoe Kenny

[Lanolin]

Truth in that mate, but I do get the opinion that as a club we basically do almost zero individual work on players to help them improve, these lads should be having individual summer pp programs designed for them to work on things like physicality etc, take Gordon in the space if a season he's gone from looking a complete lightweight into a player whose developed physically and now looks like that is an asset for him.


The academy is a joke in reality, the focus has been on the results now rather than the longer term gain of the club and young players, thsts what happens when you hsve people in position who are more arsed about their own CV thsn the club (Unsworth)

Some of that may be true but it’s a bit simplistic to be honest. Kenny and Davies haven’t been in the academy since they were about 17, any lack of development can hardly be blamed on unsworth - Davies in particular basically missed out the under 23s completely. I have to say using 2 players with somewhere in the region of 300 top level games between them at their ages as evidence of academy failings seems a bit odd to me too.

I had high hopes for kenny but I’m on record in here many times in his first season of playing for us saying I don’t think he’ll make it because he doesn’t have the physical attributes. It was just blindingly obvious. The club and academy have many issues, but they can’t turn straw into gold. Kenny could have come through at any club in the country and he wouldn’t have turned out to be top class at any of them. At most he wouldn’t have played anywhere near as much as he has here.

 

[bluestevon]

Some of that may be true but it’s a bit simplistic to be honest. Kenny and Davies haven’t been in the academy since they were about 17, any lack of development can hardly be blamed on unsworth - Davies in particular basically missed out the under 23s completely. I have to say using 2 players with somewhere in the region of 300 top level games between them at their ages as evidence of academy failings seems a bit odd to me too.

I had high hopes for kenny but I’m on record in here many times in his first season of playing for us saying I don’t think he’ll make it because he doesn’t have the physical attributes. It was just blindingly obvious. The club and academy have many issues, but they can’t turn straw into gold. Kenny could have come through at any club in the country and he wouldn’t have turned out to be top class at any of them. At most he wouldn’t have played anywhere near as much as he has here.

Thsts the thing though mate, by 17 they should hsve had a path mapped out for them to progress, neither of these seemed too hsve that.

Davies was featuring when a loan to the championship at 19 would have served him long term way better, same with Kenny - we loaned him at the point where it was done more to try raise his value to sell rather than to develop him.

The clubs been historically terrible for a long time at producing players who break through and become solid level players - Rooney, Barkley, Gordon are pretty much the only examples fir a long time of us doing so, the first two had that much natural talent they literally couldnt fail to break through, and Gordon seems to have done so as he seems immensely driven.

We've tended to overperform in youth competitions by playing players who are older than a lot of the other teams, and physically it shows, but long term that evens out and they fall away.

The academy staff we have aren't fit for purpose and haven't been for a long time.

 

[Lanolin]

Thsts the thing though mate, by 17 they should hsve had a path mapped out for them to progress, neither of these seemed too hsve that.

Davies was featuring when a loan to the championship at 19 would have served him long term way better, same with Kenny - we loaned him at the point where it was done more to try raise his value to sell rather than to develop him.

The clubs been historically terrible for a long time at producing players who break through and become solid level players - Rooney, Barkley, Gordon are pretty much the only examples fir a long time of us doing so, the first two had that much natural talent they literally couldnt fail to break through, and Gordon seems to have done so as he seems immensely driven.

We've tended to overperform in youth competitions by playing players who are older than a lot of the other teams, and physically it shows, but long term that evens out and they fall away.

The academy staff we have aren't fit for purpose and haven't been for a long time.

Again, if you don’t count Tom Davies playing 160 games for the club by the age of 23 as an academy success then you’re either not being objective or have completely unreasonable expectations of an academy. Also none of the things you’ve mentioned there address the entire point I was making. You can have as many development plans as you want but you can’t just magically change the physical make up of players, and that is Kenny’s biggest problem. Where I would criticise the club is for keeping him so long, not for not turning him into a star.

 

[bluestevon]

Again, if you don’t count Tom Davies playing 160 games for the club by the age of 23 as an academy success then you’re either not being objective or have completely unreasonable expectations of an academy. Also none of the things you’ve mentioned there address the entire point I was making. You can have as many development plans as you want but you can’t just magically change the physical make up of players, and that is Kenny’s biggest problem. Where I would criticise the club is for keeping him so long, not for not turning him into a star.

For Kenny mate I'd say given doubts about him physically, why not loan him early on to a lower league which by nature is more physical to see if that helps? Alternately loan him to a more technical league like Holland and see if you can develop him to a technical player.

Instead we kept him around doing nothing and developed neither side

 

[street end]

Again, if you don’t count Tom Davies playing 160 games for the club by the age of 23 as an academy success then you’re either not being objective or have completely unreasonable expectations of an academy. Also none of the things you’ve mentioned there address the entire point I was making. You can have as many development plans as you want but you can’t just magically change the physical make up of players, and that is Kenny’s biggest problem. Where I would criticise the club is for keeping him so long, not for not turning him into a star.

Tom Davies a success? Sorry but no, has been awful for years, lived off a goal against city about 6 years ago.

 

[hktoffee]

D-day?

 

[Lanolin]

For Kenny mate I'd say given doubts about him physically, why not loan him early on to a lower league which by nature is more physical to see if that helps? Alternately loan him to a more technical league like Holland and see if you can develop him to a technical player.

Instead we kept him around doing nothing and developed neither side

That’s exactly what we did do though. He was loaned out at 18 to league one and league two.

 

[bluestevon]

Again, if you don’t count Tom Davies playing 160 games for the club by the age of 23 as an academy success then you’re either not being objective or have completely unreasonable expectations of an academy. Also none of the things you’ve mentioned there address the entire point I was making. You can have as many development plans as you want but you can’t just magically change the physical make up of players, and that is Kenny’s biggest problem. Where I would criticise the club is for keeping him so long, not for not turning him into a star.

For Davies mate I'd say no he's not been a academy success, if we'd bought him at 19 for say 10-15m I'd wager he'd hsve not played more thsn 30-40 games before we'd have shipped him off long ago.

The majority of the games are not because he's good enough but because he's an academy player we've refused to admit we failed with and we've recruited so abysmally that he's somehow still factored despite our best efforts

 

[Lanolin]

Tom Davies a success? Sorry but no, has been awful for years, lived off a goal against city about 6 years ago.

I’m not saying he’s great, I’m saying he’s clearly a success for the academy. You can’t just pretend he’s not because you don’t like him, he’s played 160 games and even captained the side. If we don’t count players like that as an academy success then we might as well fold the whole thing.

 

[bluestevon]

That’s exactly what we do though. He was loaned out at 18 to league one and league two.

Yup mate but they where both wierd short term loans, the wigan one especially - think it was three months, he played well they wanted to keep him and we said no, and the next 6 months he spent playing youth footy again.

Then loan him the next year to a division below where he's gone the season before which is the opposite of how we should be doing it - wasn't it another short term loan but we at least extended this time but wierdly extended at a club lower and where he was playing less than the season before.

All that just strikes as the club not having a development plan and just randomly makiing decisions on the fly

 

[bluestevon]

I’m not saying he’s great, I’m saying he’s clearly a success for the academy. You can’t just pretend he’s not because you don’t like him, he’s played 160 games and even captained the side. If we don’t count players like that as an academy success then we might as well fold the whole thing.

Actually just checked it up, and it's worse thsn I remembered, the wigan loan was three months they wanted to keep him in div one we refused he sat here till January then we loaned him out to oxford in div two I initially fir one month which we allowed to be extended to the end of the season.

Next season he played a few minutes the last two games of the season having literally sat around the squad not playing all season.

Why not let the wigan loan be extended initially in league one where he was playing, why not the following season organize a loan to the championship instead of at a crucial age in his development he basically didn't play.


Can already see a similar thing happening with Dobbin

 

[Lanolin]

Actually just checked it up, and it's worse thsn I remembered, the wigan loan was three months they wanted to keep him in div one we refused he sat here till January then we loaned him out to oxford in div two I initially fir one month which we allowed to be extended to the end of the season.

Next season he played a few minutes the last two games of the season having literally sat around the squad not playing all season.

Mate you’re just going off on a massive tangent here. My only point all along has been that kenny would never have made it because he simply isn’t good enough. I’m not trying to claim the club is amazing at developing young players, I’m not sure why you’re trying to convince me of something I already agree with.

 

[EFC_FRANCIS]

I’m not saying he’s great, I’m saying he’s clearly a success for the academy. You can’t just pretend he’s not because you don’t like him, he’s played 160 games and even captained the side. If we don’t count players like that as an academy success then we might as well fold the whole thing.

Davies is a success but the problem is he shouldve been a much bigger success - Kenny likewise. Davies wasn't put in the best position possible to succeed because the club prioritised the short term and used him as a Swiss army knife to plug holes and cover ground in bad teams. Yes he's played a lot but with his pedigree you could argue we should be hoping for a lot more from a 24 year old going into next season than he can plug holes in an injury crisis. In another timeline instead of some of us clamouring for Gilmour we would be happy we took our time with Davies and developed him into the deeper lying 6 who enjoys the ball and doesn't just run around slowly. Instead he's still the exact same player as at 18

With Kenny whilst he probably never becomes a top class prem starting full back in any world he probably didn't benefit from being sent to the worst Schalke side ever and a Celtic team in disarray. The club didn't really know what to do with him be that sell, loan or keep in the first team for about 3 years, even now we aren't sure if he will be released. Brands was really really bad at 'pathways' despite how much the club banged on about it.

 

[Eggs]

D-day?

…I expect he’s got a new deal because there are no links to other clubs.

 

[Exeter_Gently]

…I expect he’s got a new deal because there are no links to other clubs.

Please no... Please