Martinez: The Reality

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Moomin said:
Rumours in the North East is that he is Ashley's number one target in the summer to become Newcastle manager. Apparently a big fan of how he works on a limited budget and it would help appease the fans feelings towards him.

Not sure Martinez could make the step up of managing a big club.
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He's already at one and on this seasons evidence is somewhat right! So far
 
Concerning reality.....what is actually going on at a football club, with the manager,players and owners is something that supporters can only ever speculate about, because the only fact that supporters have is results. Even quality of performance is a matter of opinion. My view? I think that Martinez thinking for the whole season was changed the moment Chelsea put six goals past us at GP. On the same day, we scored three against probably the best defence in the League at the time(thats an opinion, of course). Conceding six at home was just not acceptable in any circumstances,certainly not at Everton were expectation was as high it was. Martinez then immediately had a problem. He had to keep going with his 'philosophy'...the attacking football which had been so successful in his first season, but at the same time he had to try to lay the ghost of Chelseas six goals and ensure that we were more 'careful' at the back. This is the problem he has wrestled with all season, and it has proved difficult to solve for a number of reasons. The Stones injury didn't help, and loss of form post World Cup in Jagielkas case was a factor. It would have helped in Barkleys progress had been as expected, this would have given us attacking opportunities from midfield as well as via Lukaku. He needed some steel in front of the back four, but this made us less of an attacking threat, and we found it difficult to break down teams who packed the final third with defenders...it was only Barry of the midfield 'wall' who could thread a positive pass (Gibson even more than Barry, but if Gibson did not have fitness issues, he would probably still be at United). I think Martinez would like to play with two out and out wingers, but because ,again, of the goals we conceded against Chelsea, and subsquently other teams, he needed a worker like Naismith, not technically the most gifted, but a player he could rely on to track back and always help in defence, as well as contribute in attack. Naismith brought so much to the team, despite his limitations in skill compared with others, that he just had to play. Naismith was going to be all over the pitch, even though he was selected 'on the wing'...when really an out and out winger on both flanks would have helped in an attacking sense. But the spectre of the 6-3 has persisted..and Martinez still needs the insurance of Naismith at the expense of a winger(whatever way the line up is published, its still the same players for the same job). The summer will be fascinating...and depends on whether Martinez can lay the ghost of the Chelsea 6 goals, in his own head, and be brave enough to set out next season with two wingers. To some extent football hasn't changed much since the days of Tommy Ring(see Roy Vernon thread!)...the best way to beat a massed defence is to get behind it, to the by line and cross or pull back to a striker or oncoming attacking midfielder. Martinez has the ability to be a very good manager, he needs to get the right players in the summer, if he does that we will be successful.
 

As far as I see it our poor season is down to a number of factors. I'm probably going to repeat what other people have said but sod it.

1. The World Cup Hangover - Jags was slaughtered in the press for his performances and that could've lead to some self doubt in his ability as well as having a shortened pre season to recover from it. We probably could've dealt with this if it wasn't for the next issue.

2. Distin's Epic Collapse - Last season Distin was solid as rock and no one could've predicted his total loss of composure and form in such a short space of time. Martinez would've been relying on him this season but he's clearly finished and no one saw this coming.

3. No CB Replacement - Martinez dropped a clanger here. With the defence looking shaky and Distin being awful we should've brought in a CB before September but didn't. Alcaraz although useful, he's only every short term cover, Stones is really good but young so prone to mistakes leaving us with only Jags having to do a crap load of work and already under pressure. Then Stones got injured and then we were properly screwed.

4. McCarthy's injuries - He was huge for us last season but the Europa League and his hamstring injuries have had him out the first team for too long so we've missed him massively.

5. Europa League - Unlike every other club, we've gone out and taken it seriously but obviously that's affected our league form. We've got a manager who has no european experience and a squad that isn't used to it either with a few exceptions.

6. Barkley and Lukaku Under Pressure - They're both young so they're form is up and down all the time but because of price tags and media hype they're constantly under pressure to perform and because they're still learning the game they make mistakes which everyone jumps on because we're having to rely on them. OK, Lukaku shot himself in the foot for his dumb comments which were naive and that's only made things worse.

7. All The Injuries - Osman, Pienaar, Gibson, Stones and McCarthy have all been out for long periods of time when we needed a big squad to compete in the league and europe. We slate Osman and Pienaar but we have definitely missed them this season.\

8. Lack of Width - Can't be arsed to go into this as is bloody obvious.

9. Tim Howard - Utter pish this season and should not have been allowed straight back in the side after his injury. Shocking decision my Martinez after the performances from Robles.

Obviously everyone has under performed this season including the boss but I don't want to see him sacked although I've been as frustrated and angry as everyone else but don't see the point in sacking the guy. We need to think long term and if we're in the same situation come November/December then he'll be out of a job but not just yet
 
Billy Dean said:
I think it's a bit harsh to judge him now on his signing Lukaku. The majority of Blues were buzzing went the deal went through
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That's not the point I'm making, he had all his plans resting on Lukaku signing, unfortunately Lukaku didn't, imo he was bidingvtime to see what other offers materialised, when nothing better showed up, he signed. End of July iirc? Martinez believed after the relative success of his first season to secure the loan players, for us a relatively huge kitty was used doing it. But there wasn't any scope for style change, even when Eto'o came in, so all the other teams, knowing how we now played set up shop accordingly.

A similar thing happened to Rodgers, despite claiming to perservere, he did make changes and got the rewards for letting go of his stubbornness.

The upshot is, after the first season a lot of blues believed, naively, that Martinez was the finished article near enough, this season has proved different, he is very much still learning, but, again, imo, too slowly. He has to perservere because he didn't give himself options in his pursuit of Lukaku, options in purchases and options in pre season preparations.

Perhaps though, he was allowed to go to the WC as suntan Bob et al do the actual dealings and it was them that prevaricated, squeezing a quid here and there, they knew all about Lukaku as he had 'proven ' himself prior, doubt we'll ever know, but all that dithering cost us hugely and we never caught up.
 
Will Escott said:
As far as I see it our poor season is down to a number of factors. I'm probably going to repeat what other people have said but sod it.

1. The World Cup Hangover - Jags was slaughtered in the press for his performances and that could've lead to some self doubt in his ability as well as having a shortened pre season to recover from it. We probably could've dealt with this if it wasn't for the next issue.

2. Distin's Epic Collapse - Last season Distin was solid as rock and no one could've predicted his total loss of composure and form in such a short space of time. Martinez would've been relying on him this season but he's clearly finished and no one saw this coming.

3. No CB Replacement - Martinez dropped a clanger here. With the defence looking shaky and Distin being awful we should've brought in a CB before September but didn't. Alcaraz although useful, he's only every short term cover, Stones is really good but young so prone to mistakes leaving us with only Jags having to do a crap load of work and already under pressure. Then Stones got injured and then we were properly screwed.

4. McCarthy's injuries - He was huge for us last season but the Europa League and his hamstring injuries have had him out the first team for too long so we've missed him massively.

5. Europa League - Unlike every other club, we've gone out and taken it seriously but obviously that's affected our league form. We've got a manager who has no european experience and a squad that isn't used to it either with a few exceptions.

6. Barkley and Lukaku Under Pressure - They're both young so they're form is up and down all the time but because of price tags and media hype they're constantly under pressure to perform and because they're still learning the game they make mistakes which everyone jumps on because we're having to rely on them. OK, Lukaku shot himself in the foot for his dumb comments which were naive and that's only made things worse.

7. All The Injuries - Osman, Pienaar, Gibson, Stones and McCarthy have all been out for long periods of time when we needed a big squad to compete in the league and europe. We slate Osman and Pienaar but we have definitely missed them this season.\

8. Lack of Width - Can't be arsed to go into this as is bloody obvious.

9. Tim Howard - Utter pish this season and should not have been allowed straight back in the side after his injury. Shocking decision my Martinez after the performances from Robles.

Obviously everyone has under performed this season including the boss but I don't want to see him sacked although I've been as frustrated and angry as everyone else but don't see the point in sacking the guy. We need to think long term and if we're in the same situation come November/December then he'll be out of a job but not just yet
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Pretty good summary that. I would have highlighted more the case of Sammy Eto + Stones injury
 
Can you imagine the pressure the players and martinez will be under to hit the ground running and perform start of next season??

I personally think he's gone to far this season. Has lost the the fan base. Even if he gets it back temporarily with a couple of good results, it soon disapears again with bad results. I think a lot have lost confidence in him.

Even through moyes poorer patches, you KNEW it would eventually improve and it always did.

Don't kid yourselves this lovable clown can't take us down. Only the quality he has at his disposable is just about keeping us away from it this season.

Imagine loosing a few key players and RM replacing them badly. With his then bizare tactics we really COULD go down.
 

Steve Wigan said:
Concerning reality.....what is actually going on at a football club, with the manager,players and owners is something that supporters can only ever speculate about, because the only fact that supporters have is results. Even quality of performance is a matter of opinion. My view? I think that Martinez thinking for the whole season was changed the moment Chelsea put six goals past us at GP. On the same day, we scored three against probably the best defence in the League at the time(thats an opinion, of course). Conceding six at home was just not acceptable in any circumstances,certainly not at Everton were expectation was as high it was. Martinez then immediately had a problem. He had to keep going with his 'philosophy'...the attacking football which had been so successful in his first season, but at the same time he had to try to lay the ghost of Chelseas six goals and ensure that we were more 'careful' at the back. This is the problem he has wrestled with all season, and it has proved difficult to solve for a number of reasons. The Stones injury didn't help, and loss of form post World Cup in Jagielkas case was a factor. It would have helped in Barkleys progress had been as expected, this would have given us attacking opportunities from midfield as well as via Lukaku. He needed some steel in front of the back four, but this made us less of an attacking threat, and we found it difficult to break down teams who packed the final third with defenders...it was only Barry of the midfield 'wall' who could thread a positive pass (Gibson even more than Barry, but if Gibson did not have fitness issues, he would probably still be at United). I think Martinez would like to play with two out and out wingers, but because ,again, of the goals we conceded against Chelsea, and subsquently other teams, he needed a worker like Naismith, not technically the most gifted, but a player he could rely on to track back and always help in defence, as well as contribute in attack. Naismith brought so much to the team, despite his limitations in skill compared with others, that he just had to play. Naismith was going to be all over the pitch, even though he was selected 'on the wing'...when really an out and out winger on both flanks would have helped in an attacking sense. But the spectre of the 6-3 has persisted..and Martinez still needs the insurance of Naismith at the expense of a winger(whatever way the line up is published, its still the same players for the same job). The summer will be fascinating...and depends on whether Martinez can lay the ghost of the Chelsea 6 goals, in his own head, and be brave enough to set out next season with two wingers. To some extent football hasn't changed much since the days of Tommy Ring(see Roy Vernon thread!)...the best way to beat a massed defence is to get behind it, to the by line and cross or pull back to a striker or oncoming attacking midfielder. Martinez has the ability to be a very good manager, he needs to get the right players in the summer, if he does that we will be successful.
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Great post.

Though I believe it was rhe Crystal Palace debacle which caused Martinez's crisis of confidence.

That defeat was much more danaging to morale at the club than the Chelsea game was, IMO.
 
LouReedwalkonthewildside said:
I agree, can't understand why (especially yesterday) he can't play 2 wingers against a team who were playing five at the back and were happy most of the time sitting back. The only problem I see is to play with two wide men Naismith would have to be benched, and then Barkley can play behind Lukaku, IMO though, it seems like Naismith's is the first name on the team sheet for Martinez.
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What is worrying for me is that after calling for 2 wingers, he actually played two wingers for 30 minutes or so, he played lennon and Atsu, worrying part is atsu played attacking midfield ? Baffles me more and more as every day passes this season.
 

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