2023/24 Sean Dyche

[W84 Dum Freeze]

I often wonder how influenced the likes of Moyes and Dyche were by watching Clough manage, Clough teams demanded that intensity and leaving everything out there attitude, they played defensively on the counter a kit even v inferior teams and at home.

But they missed the nuances that Clough trusted his CBs, had overlapping fullbacks and they countered on the ground or long switching cross field balls, still remember the rumour that he fined players besides the keeper who punted it long in training (may be an old wives tail), so they get the idea behind Clough ball, but miss the thing that actually made it work so effectively.

Watching Clough's side that came up at Goodison first game of the season and beat us 3-1 with Birtles, Woodcock and Robertson up front, was a shock how well they played against us.
Clough as you say was tactically spot on, but he also had the charisma, ruthlessness, humour and wisdom needed to build on the confidence of the season before, to build a winning mentality spirit.

 

[W84 Dum Freeze]

Thing is, I look at the side we have, unless we go to a back three we simply don't have the fullbacks to play more proactive, we don't have the wingers to play a true counter attack game which doesn't involve a punt up top and rush.

Is that cos Dyche doesn't want that he's happy with how it is, or is it due to resources. Nobody truly knows for sure.

But say he had the Babies, Coleman version that Moyes had, with the CBs we have would be still being sitting in a low block with the fullbacks instructed to hold their positions and never get forward....

For every Dinge there is a Terry Darracott,
But you need someone who has both their skills and the brain of when to join in and when to sit in.

 

[twoblue]

His approach to fitness is dreadful imo the whole 'Gaffers day' is just nonsense. You won't find many teams that spend an entire training session with no ball work just doing shuttle runs and fitness work and doing that twice in a week. Mourinho once said that when in training players should always have a ball at feet even if they are just walking/running around a pitch. We also have alot of wasted running during games due to the way he sets the team, players are making pointless runs they don't need to make. Last season players were run into the ground by Christmas time looking tired and after that we went on a near four month winless run. It's pre season and look at the injuries being racked up, going a bit too hard with the boot camp stuff maybe.

All teams have injuries. Newcastles was far worse than ours but no one here is blaming Howe

No they haven’t, they were in as much financial trouble as us at one point, they were on the brink just before being taken over, they got took over by people who have a plan and the finances to back it up, we got took over by the Iranian Vincent Tan, stop making stuff up

RE villa - maybe he was saying they have been a well run club since the people now running the club, started running the club.

 

[Delargeinho]

The Spanish national team could adapt in the Euro's tactically because they had the players to do so, but also, all were geared to play as a team and knew their job on the field.

Their players had the chances and the confidence to finish them. They were still lucky to get past the Germans and with the players who hit the ground running coming in for those injured.

An enjoyable team to watch with various styles of play which is down to a good manager getting the best from his resources.

Let's hope Sean was taking notes.

We had to go away from our short-passing possession only, because we were becoming too predictable. Our players help to become more flexible.

Yeah, overall we were the best team at the Euros, had some luck against Germany, but that is part of the game.

I've known de la Fuente in person for about 20 years. A very humble guy, just greatness.

He was never a really successful manger on a club level, but been involved in the U19-21 of Spain for a decade before.
So basically, he has known almost every player in person and most of them played under him.

 

[JLW]

In the end I see Dyche as very much on a similar level to Moyes as a coach, both have their ceiling, both have very obvious strengths but undermined by adherence to what those strengths are as coaches even when they need to do something different.

Take Moyes, ten years of going away to any sky six side and playing the exact same way, even though it literally NEVER worked at any period of time. It was almost like a defeat without getting hammered so keeping morale for the next game was worth more than going for a result and risking a beating which would then impact morale for the next 'winnable' match.

How do we expect to get consistency and more importantly players to hit 'form' when for 70% of the game they chase shadows because we tactically concede possession.

Why dont our midfielders ever run a game of football, because its normally bypassed them by a long punt from Pickford, again tactical instructions from the manager.

I dont buy this is how we have to play because of the players weve got, i see the likes of Brighton attacking and creating lots of chances with players like Lewis Dunk, Milner, Lallana and Danny Welbeck in the spine of their team.

We dont get midfielders running beyond DCL when we punt it up, so even if he wins the header its for nothing.

When i watch us under Dyche it looks like we work on nothing with the ball and everything is about positioning without it.
Our xG he bleats on about are scruffy chances not training ground patterns of play that weve worked on, Its all 2nd ball percentage football.

 

[Neiler]

In the end I see Dyche as very much on a similar level to Moyes as a coach, both have their ceiling, both have very obvious strengths but undermined by adherence to what those strengths are as coaches even when they need to do something different.

Take Moyes, ten years of going away to any sky six side and playing the exact same way, even though it literally NEVER worked at any period of time. It was almost like a defeat without getting hammered so keeping morale for the next game was worth more than going for a result and risking a beating which would then impact morale for the next 'winnable' match.

I agree i see similarities with Dyche and Moyes mate.

One thing id say though, did the club hit a ceiling with Moyes, or did Moyes hit the ceiling at the club - he went on to be picked by the then most successful and arguably one of the biggest clubs in the world at the time from here. Moyes built a club here and i suspect Dyche will do the same, very few managers can do it these days, its a dying role.

When i review this thread overall i find it really lacking in self awareness, taking of the blue tinted specs and looking at the situation objectively, we arent attractive to players and we arent attractive to managers - who would want to come here and work through the conidiations that Dyche had last season and see it as a right step in career progression - no one on a progressive career pathway anyway.

Dyche is very, very good manager - behind Emery last season for manger of the year for me and id find that a close call.

 

[bluestevon]

I agree i see similarities with Dyche and Moyes mate.

One thing id say though, did the club hit a ceiling with Moyes, or did Moyes hit the ceiling at the club - he went on to be picked by the then most successful and arguably one of the biggest clubs in the world at the time from here.

When i review this thread overall i find it really lacking in self awareness, taking of the blue tinted specs and looking at the situation objectively, we arent attractive to players and we arent attractive to managers - who would want to come here and work through the conidiations that Dyche had last season and see it as a right step in career progression - no one on a progressive career pathway anyway.

Dyche is very, very good manager - behind Emery last season for manger of the year for me and id find that a close call.

No debate for me, Moyes hit his own ceiling at the club, as evidenced by his career since leaving us. Can even see he did similar at west ham - hit his personal ceiling there, at united his ceiling dragged the club downwards even where you can argue they've never pulled back from.

Spot on with the rose (blue) tinted specs, why would say for instance a Potter come here - he'd know that he wouldn't get time (when moshiri and bill were here and active) the financial mess dictates the activity or lack thereof and until the ownership and financial situation is sorted, then that's how we will remain viewed by ambitious progressive managers.

Now take an alternative view, say over the next twelve months TFG took over, restructured debt and repaid some, removed all the toxic debt, we move into the new stadium and start to see financial benefits of that move, and we hire competent football people throughout the club - now would Potter take the job?

 

[Neiler]

No debate for me, Moyes hit his own ceiling at the club, as evidenced by his career since leaving us. Can even see he did similar at west ham - hit his personal ceiling there, at united his ceiling dragged the club downwards even where you can argue they've never pulled back from.

Spot on with the rose (blue) tinted specs, why would say for instance a Potter come here - he'd know that he wouldn't get time (when moshiri and bill were here and active) the financial mess dictates the activity or lack thereof and until the ownership and financial situation is sorted, then that's how we will remain viewed by ambitious progressive managers.

Now take an alternative view, say over the next twelve months TFG took over, restructured debt and repaid some, removed all the toxic debt, we move into the new stadium and start to see financial benefits of that move, and we hire competent football people throughout the club - now would Potter take the job?

Disagree on Moyes mate, i think ultimately he took the club as far as he could within the limits at the time - we spent three years hitting the glass window because of the limits at the club at the time, with a good team and every year patching up our trousers having to sell our best players as they got fed up hitting the glass ceiling - ultimately he went the same way. His time at Utd wasn't what he hoped - but that and the Arsenal jobs were always poisoned chalices after Ferguson and Wenger in Gen 1 in my opinion. Happen to know the problems at Sunderland were deep - so i dont read too much into his time there and at WHU he did exactly there what he did here and built a club, via Europe and a trophy he did a wonderful job - the clubs revenue has grown hugely now and he's made 10s of millions for them if not more - that what i mean by building a club - some manager can do it on and off the pitch - WHU are absolutely thick to let him go, stupid!

You see the rest of the argument in moot mate in my opinion - i dont want Potter, i dont think hes a patch on Dyche, Potter is a coach, Dyche is a football manager, Potter would get eaten up and spat out at a club like this. What has Potter done in football to compare to Dyche recovering and building clubs - thus far in his career. I dont know where the ceiling is with Dyche - at Burnley he got Europe - what could he do at a bigger club..........but i think hes earned that opportunity.

Why? because i see building, i see a change in culture, i see stability, i see consistency, i see confidence, i see the club being run well, i see standards being set - i see someone who leads the vanguard of the team, take responsibility and represent this club with dignity, i see results coming that under other managers are losses, i see the best being gotten from players, i see young players being given chances, i see getting the best out of previous discarded assets and improved individual player performances, i see incremental improvement, i see a humble, fair, straight, honest but strong leader take responsibility and represent this club with dignity, when the clubs reputation is taking a battering in the toughest of times - i see him not hiding as others have and do or blame others. Not in a million years would i want to swap that for the Potters of this world.

Hes earned his chance to take this club forward for a good number of years in my opinion regardless of what happens off the pitch takeovers. I really believe he can rebuild this club.

 

[ForeverBlue92]

Disagree on Moyes mate, i think ultimately he took the club as far as he could within the limits at the time - we spent three hitting th glass window, with a good team and every year patching up our trousers having to sell our best players as they got fed up hitting the glass ceiling - ultimately he went the same way. His time at Utd wasn't what he hoped - but that and the Arsenal jobs were always poisoned chalices after Ferguson and Wenger in Gen 1 in my opinion. Happen to know the problems at Sunderland were deep - so i dont read too much into his time there and at WHU he did exactly there what he did here and built a club, via Europe and trophy he did a wonderful job - the clubs revenue has grown hugely now and hes made 10s of millions for them if not more - that what i mean by building a club - some manager can do it on and off the pitch - WHU are absolutely thick to let him go, stupid!

You see the rest of the argument in moot mate in my opinion - i dont want Potter, i dont think hes a patch on Dyche, Potter is a coach, Dyche is a football manager, Potter get eaten up and spat out at a club like this. What has Potter done in football to compare to Dyche recovering and building clubs - thus far in his career. I dont know where the ceiling is with Dyche at Burnley he got Europe - what could he do at a bigger club..........and i think hes earned that opportunity.

Why because i see building, i see a change in culture, i see stability, i see consistency, i see confidence, i see the club being run well, i see standard being set - i see someone who lead the vanguard of the team, take responsibility and represent this club with dignity, i see results coming that under other managers are losses, i see the best being gotten from players, i see young players being given chances, i see getting the best being got out of previous discarded assets and improved individual player performances, i see incremental improvement, i see a humble but stroing leader take responsibility and represent this club with dignity, when the clubs reputation is taking a battering in the toughest of times, i see him not hiding as others have or blame others. Not in a million years would i want to swap that for the Potters of this world.

Hes earned his chance to take this club forward for a good number of years in my opinion regardless of what happens off the pitch. I really believe he can rebuild this club.

If only BK had given Wee Davey the money for Moutinho & Negredo.

What could have been.

 

[pfim]

No debate for me, Moyes hit his own ceiling at the club, as evidenced by his career since leaving us. Can even see he did similar at west ham - hit his personal ceiling there, at united his ceiling dragged the club downwards even where you can argue they've never pulled back from.

Spot on with the rose (blue) tinted specs, why would say for instance a Potter come here - he'd know that he wouldn't get time (when moshiri and bill were here and active) the financial mess dictates the activity or lack thereof and until the ownership and financial situation is sorted, then that's how we will remain viewed by ambitious progressive managers.

Now take an alternative view, say over the next twelve months TFG took over, restructured debt and repaid some, removed all the toxic debt, we move into the new stadium and start to see financial benefits of that move, and we hire competent football people throughout the club - now would Potter take the job?

He hit his ceiling here, agreed. Perhaps we snag a trophy like WHU if there was a bit more investment in his time.

I disagree about his time at United. I don't think he was the right guy for the job, but I don't think he dragged the club downwards. I mean, he was there for a year 10 years ago, their owner's ambivalence towards winning has done them more than any manager has.

 

[Eggsyblueskin]

We also had the fourth best defence in the league, would have finished 12th without the points deduction level with everyone's favourite 'entertainers' Brighton

Also had two runs of form either side of the horrid run were we went 6-1-1 (Man United loss was undeserved) with four wins on the road and 5-1-1 at another period (Chelsea hammering the only loss but the first derby win in god knows how long at Goodison).

So either side of that long winless run we we 11-2-2 on results, yet critics never acknowledge that part

You do realise ‘entertainment’ is actually the reason football exists.
Football only exists to provide , as you would put it , ‘entertainment’.
As a neutral, I would watch Brighton in preference to Everton because currently Brighton are able to fulfil the remit of actually being an ‘entertaining’ football team.

 

[Tel001]

Mostly I agree mate, sometimes the way we set up and play it doesn't frustrate me, just sometimes the execution does though.

Few examples, Arsenal away, United at home - we finish the chances we had v united it goes down as a very enjoyable game - we don't and the obvious happens, Arsenal we simply hit robbed by a woeful ref, the home derby, o e of the most enjoyable games in a long time - because we executed well at the top end. Chelsea at home another of those.

Even some of the performances early season we lost or drew - if we finish a host of sitters we win comfortably using a tactic that exposed the opponents weaknesses to the counter etc.

So if we could finish even averagely we likely finish top 9 last season.

The issue is though he sets that way up against absolutely everyone no matter who they are or how they play. He's loathe to make any changes before 70 - usually 80 minutes in unless injuries, and very rarely changes the shape in a game - even when patently it's not working or someone's having an utter mare out there.

Is that because he doesn't have the options or he worries the players will if changing style or system will lose the cohesion and drilling needed to go and play like that say in the derby etc, I'm unsure, I lean towards it's just Dyche and he's a limited although effective one coach system of play.

Hope I'm wrong because having the plus points of a Dyche side who can then develop into playing more front foot footy when needed would be a great combination, but I doubt I am, it's why ultimately Dyche isn't an elite manager - the ones who are adaptable are.

Totally agree with everything you just said.

I don’t dislike dyche and he doesn’t deserve to get sacked.

But at the end of the season , going into our new stadium… I’d like to actually see us having a go.. even if we end up like spurs and don’t win anything is just want to see some decent players playing decent footy

 

[MJA]

How do we expect to get consistency and more importantly players to hit 'form' when for 70% of the game they chase shadows because we tactically concede possession.

Why dont our midfielders ever run a game of football, because its normally bypassed them by a long punt from Pickford, again tactical instructions from the manager.

I dont buy this is how we have to play because of the players weve got, i see the likes of Brighton attacking and creating lots of chances with players like Lewis Dunk, Milner, Lallana and Danny Welbeck in the spine of their team.

We dont get midfielders running beyond DCL when we punt it up, so even if he wins the header its for nothing.

When i watch us under Dyche it looks like we work on nothing with the ball and everything is about positioning without it.
Our xG he bleats on about are scruffy chances not training ground patterns of play that weve worked on, Its all 2nd ball percentage football.

Milner and Lallana hardly ever start and I hardly think Dunk is at the centre of all things creative so I dont really get that argument.

 

[Effluent]

Disagree on Moyes mate, i think ultimately he took the club as far as he could within the limits at the time - we spent three years hitting the glass window because of the limits at the club at the time, with a good team and every year patching up our trousers having to sell our best players as they got fed up hitting the glass ceiling - ultimately he went the same way. His time at Utd wasn't what he hoped - but that and the Arsenal jobs were always poisoned chalices after Ferguson and Wenger in Gen 1 in my opinion. Happen to know the problems at Sunderland were deep - so i dont read too much into his time there and at WHU he did exactly there what he did here and built a club, via Europe and a trophy he did a wonderful job - the clubs revenue has grown hugely now and he's made 10s of millions for them if not more - that what i mean by building a club - some manager can do it on and off the pitch - WHU are absolutely thick to let him go, stupid!

You see the rest of the argument in moot mate in my opinion - i dont want Potter, i dont think hes a patch on Dyche, Potter is a coach, Dyche is a football manager, Potter would get eaten up and spat out at a club like this. What has Potter done in football to compare to Dyche recovering and building clubs - thus far in his career. I dont know where the ceiling is with Dyche - at Burnley he got Europe - what could he do at a bigger club..........but i think hes earned that opportunity.

Why? because i see building, i see a change in culture, i see stability, i see consistency, i see confidence, i see the club being run well, i see standards being set - i see someone who leads the vanguard of the team, take responsibility and represent this club with dignity, i see results coming that under other managers are losses, i see the best being gotten from players, i see young players being given chances, i see getting the best out of previous discarded assets and improved individual player performances, i see incremental improvement, i see a humble, fair, straight, honest but strong leader take responsibility and represent this club with dignity, when the clubs reputation is taking a battering in the toughest of times - i see him not hiding as others have and do or blame others. Not in a million years would i want to swap that for the Potters of this world.

Hes earned his chance to take this club forward for a good number of years in my opinion regardless of what happens off the pitch takeovers. I really believe he can rebuild this club.

Well said.

 

[degsy]

Disagree on Moyes mate, i think ultimately he took the club as far as he could within the limits at the time - we spent three years hitting the glass window because of the limits at the club at the time, with a good team and every year patching up our trousers having to sell our best players as they got fed up hitting the glass ceiling - ultimately he went the same way. His time at Utd wasn't what he hoped - but that and the Arsenal jobs were always poisoned chalices after Ferguson and Wenger in Gen 1 in my opinion. Happen to know the problems at Sunderland were deep - so i dont read too much into his time there and at WHU he did exactly there what he did here and built a club, via Europe and a trophy he did a wonderful job - the clubs revenue has grown hugely now and he's made 10s of millions for them if not more - that what i mean by building a club - some manager can do it on and off the pitch - WHU are absolutely thick to let him go, stupid!

You see the rest of the argument in moot mate in my opinion - i dont want Potter, i dont think hes a patch on Dyche, Potter is a coach, Dyche is a football manager, Potter would get eaten up and spat out at a club like this. What has Potter done in football to compare to Dyche recovering and building clubs - thus far in his career. I dont know where the ceiling is with Dyche - at Burnley he got Europe - what could he do at a bigger club..........but i think hes earned that opportunity.

Why? because i see building, i see a change in culture, i see stability, i see consistency, i see confidence, i see the club being run well, i see standards being set - i see someone who leads the vanguard of the team, take responsibility and represent this club with dignity, i see results coming that under other managers are losses, i see the best being gotten from players, i see young players being given chances, i see getting the best out of previous discarded assets and improved individual player performances, i see incremental improvement, i see a humble, fair, straight, honest but strong leader take responsibility and represent this club with dignity, when the clubs reputation is taking a battering in the toughest of times - i see him not hiding as others have and do or blame others. Not in a million years would i want to swap that for the Potters of this world.

Hes earned his chance to take this club forward for a good number of years in my opinion regardless of what happens off the pitch takeovers. I really believe he can rebuild this club.

Fine words well said mate, let's hope so