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"sixth, seventh or eighth the best Everton can do"

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Timak said:
And how many of them have won the cup?

Portsmouth, once, when they faced Cardiff in the final.

Still waiting for your answer about which clubs Everton should have finished above in the last 6 years.

Because it would be a pretty spectacular achievement to have gone 6 years without being outperformed by another club.
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When you get to a final then it's about one game on the day. I'm judging Moyes on finals, not silverware, as I've said above, because that is the better reflection of on the field consistency rather than the one off game result.

As for who we should have finished above, that's subjective, based on how those seasons panned out. If your definition is solely financial based on the spending in the summer prior to that season starting, then you'll have a very different view when compared to judging it based on other considerations like wage bills, previous season form, squad cohesion etc.

Take this season for example. QPR have massively out spent us. By your logic, QPR "should" finish above us, right? But obviously that's not the case.

So rather than use the word "should", I use the word "could". Without going through every season, there's been numerous times we "could" have finished higher than we should if Moyes had the ability to convert promise into actuality.

This season is a prime example. We've started brilliantly, we didn't sell anyone in January, we've had moderate injury concerns but nothing spectacular. So we "could" be up there around 4th now, which would see me legitimately saying that Moyes has "done a fine job", but as it is he's failing to convert yet again.
 
Tubey said:
Except it's not, is it? Not really.

Is the expectation amongst Everton fans really "sixth seventh or eighth" and no cups? Is expecting a few more League and FA Cup finals from a side who are amongst the top eight clubs in the land an expectation that has no "foothold in reality"? Is expecting a "world class" manager to trust his own ability and that of his squad to aim for the top four and "get an eagle for the course" completely delusional?
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A few more League & FA Cup finals?

We've been in the final of the LC twice in the 53 year history of the thing & never won it!

One FA Cup final acheived, how many more should he have managed to reach in 10 years lad?
 
Actually, in fairness, you know what Moyes' biggest achievement by a country mile is, and one everyone fails to mention? Finishing 4th.

That's perhaps the only thing that takes him from being a "failure" at Everton to being merely a disappointment.
 
Tubey said:
Actually, in fairness, you know what Moyes' biggest achievement by a country mile is, and one everyone fails to mention? Finishing 4th.

That's perhaps the only thing that takes him from being a "failure" at Everton to being merely a disappointment.
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Mate I think you're going to get your way and we will see someone else in the hot seat next season.

I have this feeling you as well as me are going to be wishing Moyes was still here. Just a hunch I have.
 

Tubey said:
During Moyes reign, from my quick check there's only been one occasion where the FA Cup final has been contested by the two sides who finished 1st and 2nd that season in the Premier League, which was 2006/07.

During that time, Southampton, Millwall, West Ham, Cardiff, Portsmouth and Stoke City have contested FA Cup finals.

EDIT: Oh, and Everton once!
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That's just it, they did it once. You'd think that these minnows have a golden formula or something. The reality is that everything aligned for them in that year. You could say the same for us, but we've had a couple of semi-final appearances as well, and each time gone out to a rich club.

Little Ralphy said:
In fairness Swansea beat Chelsea at the bridge and the rs at anfield, something we haven't managed. Bradford knocked out Arsenal, Villa and Wigan. The final may have been one sided but neither side was gifted an easy cup run.
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Just as the year we got there we beat Liverpool, Man Utd and Villa. Had we played either Swansea or Bradford in the final rather than Chelsea I think we'd have a trophy.
 
Foot Long Hot Dog said:
A few more League & FA Cup finals?

We've been in the final of the LC twice in the 53 year history of the thing & never won it!

One FA Cup final acheived, how many more should he have managed to reach in 10 years lad?
Click to expand...

Ahh, silly me, so Moyes hasn't actually tried to win the League Cup then. I must have forgot the myriad of occasions he played the youth team in the competition.

He's had over twenty attempts to reach a final and managed it once. A one in twenty conversion rate. Joe Royle managed an FA Cup final at Everton (and won it) with a much worse squad win his first season. Is Royle a better manager than Moyes? No, because overall he just isn't.

But that's the thing you see. I acknowledge Royle had faults - the amazing thing about the Moyes zealots is that regardless of anything to the contrary, he's utterly perfect.

You spoke of being deluded before - if you truly believe Moyes' record in the cup competitions has been "good", then that is true delusion.
 
GrandOldTeam said:
Great job, no doubt.

But if he leaves at the end of the season, history will define his time at Everton as a failure...
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Failure to win a domestic pot? or do you mean a failure to qualify for CLF, appear at wembley 3 times, stablize the club and finish most years in the top 6 above our budget spend?
 
Bruce Wayne said:
That's just it, they did it once. You'd think that these minnows have a golden formula or something. The reality is that everything aligned for them in that year. You could say the same for us, but we've had a couple of semi-final appearances as well, and each time gone out to a rich club.
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That's far too simplistic - if you went through those cup runs you'll see big upsets as a result of a manager giving it a go. Look at our run to the final; we knocked out United. Cup runs very rarely require knocking out lesser opposition alone.

Your overall point is valid but I'm interpreting it a completely different way. If we had a manager who was better at managing expectation levels in the one off games, we'd get over those hurdles a lot more regularly than we have.

Of course, someone will now come back and somehow claim Moyes handles the big games perfectly fine or something. How that claim can be made is beyond my understanding but someone will say it anyway.
 
micknick said:
Mate I think you're going to get your way and we will see someone else in the hot seat next season.

I have this feeling you as well as me are going to be wishing Moyes was still here. Just a hunch I have.
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Your not the only one. I am ready for it becuase without change in the back office, it,s stagnation to the horizon.
 

Tubey said:
Ahh, silly me, so Moyes hasn't actually tried to win the League Cup then. I must have forgot the myriad of occasions he played the youth team in the competition.

He's had over twenty attempts to reach a final and managed it once. A one in twenty conversion rate. Joe Royle managed an FA Cup final at Everton (and won it) with a much worse squad win his first season. Is Royle a better manager than Moyes? No, because overall he just isn't.

But that's the thing you see. I acknowledge Royle had faults - the amazing thing about the Moyes zealots is that regardless of anything to the contrary, he's utterly perfect.

You spoke of being deluded before - if you truly believe Moyes' record in the cup competitions has been "good", then that is true delusion.
Click to expand...

You've ignored the point, we've reached the final twice in 53 years, so why would you 'expect' Moyes to have reached multiple finals in that comp? Simple question.

Moyes zealots? Are you for real? Incidentally if you actually care to read my recent posts in this thread, you'll find out I that I think he's far from perfect & have said so.

Also, care to point out where I said his record in the Cups was "good"? Albeit if we beat Oldham & Wigan, he'll have 3 SF's in 4 years on his record, together with 1 final, that could hardly be described as crap could it?
 
Tubey said:
When you get to a final then it's about one game on the day. I'm judging Moyes on finals, not silverware, as I've said above, because that is the better reflection of on the field consistency rather than the one off game result.

As for who we should have finished above, that's subjective, based on how those seasons panned out. If your definition is solely financial based on the spending in the summer prior to that season starting, then you'll have a very different view when compared to judging it based on other considerations like wage bills, previous season form, squad cohesion etc.

Take this season for example. QPR have massively out spent us. By your logic, QPR "should" finish above us, right? But obviously that's not the case.

So rather than use the word "should", I use the word "could". Without going through every season, there's been numerous times we "could" have finished higher than we should if Moyes had the ability to convert promise into actuality.

This season is a prime example. We've started brilliantly, we didn't sell anyone in January, we've had moderate injury concerns but nothing spectacular. So we "could" be up there around 4th now, which would see me legitimately saying that Moyes has "done a fine job", but as it is he's failing to convert yet again.
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Not at all.

I've listed the clubs for you.

Which do you think we should have finished above? It isn't a hard question.

I'll start. I think we should have finished above Newcastle last season but no other club in the last 6 years.

Taking this season as an example.

We had a great start but started spluttering in the run up to the January transfer window.

Then the board are asked to bring in a player or two and fail to do so.

Our rivals, who already have superior squads add:
Tottenham - a 22 year old German international midfielder
Liverpool - £20m of signings
Arsenal - a £10m left back

Yet you will deem it a failure if we don't finish above those squads.

Bizarre.
 

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