"sixth, seventh or eighth the best Everton can do"

[Tubey]

Not at all.

I've listed the clubs for you.

Which do you think we should have finished above? It isn't a hard question.

I'll start. I think we should have finished above Newcastle last season but no other club in the last 6 years.

Taking this season as an example.

We had a great start but started spluttering in the run up to the January transfer window.

Then the board are asked to bring in a player or two and fail to do so.

Our rivals, who already have superior squads add:
Tottenham - a 22 year old German international midfielder
Liverpool - £20m of signings
Arsenal - a £10m left back

Yet you will deem it a failure if we don't finish above those squads.

Bizarre.

It's not bizarre at all, you haven't stated your criteria.

For example, I don't even know why you think we should have finished above Newcastle. I might agree but I have no idea how you've came to that conclusion.

For example, QPR spent shedloads this year. Liverpool let a £35m signing go out on loan. etc. etc.

You're asking a blanket subjective question and I have no idea where the goalposts are. It's like me asking "what brand of cheese do you think we should have had on toast last night?"

 

[Bigmaclad]

And thats Moyes fault is it?

I wouldn't say so, although I think a new manager and a change could do the club the world of good.

I respect everything Moyes has done for the club, but everything just feels so stale.

 

[Tubey]

You've ignored the point, we've reached the final twice in 53 years, so why would you 'expect' Moyes to have reached multiple finals in that comp? Simple question.

Moyes zealots? Are you for real? Incidentally if you actually care to read my recent posts in this thread, you'll find out I that I think he's far from perfect & have said so.

Also, care to point out where I said his record in the Cups was "good"? Albeit if we beat Oldham & Wigan, he'll have 3 SF's in 4 years on his record, together with 1 final, that could hardly be described as crap could it?

I know you said that - I didn't mean you, I mean the people who believe the club will implode if he leaves.

I must admit I just assumed you thought he'd done well in cup competitions, otherwise I fail to see the reason you're arguing to the contrary!!!

In regards to the League Cup specifically, I've said in this thread somewhere that we're historically bad in that cup, but just because we have been awful in 1973 or whatever doesn't automatically mean it makes Moyes' record any better between 2002 and 2013.

 

[Timak]

It's not bizarre at all, you haven't stated your criteria.

For example, I don't even know why you think we should have finished above Newcastle. I might agree but I have no idea how you've came to that conclusion.

For example, QPR spent shedloads this year. Liverpool let a £35m signing go out on loan. etc. etc.

You're asking a blanket subjective question and I have no idea where the goalposts are. It's like me asking "what brand of cheese do you think we should have had on toast last night?"

I'm not narrowing it down to specific criteria, I am asking you to take everything into account.

Given everything we know about every club which of the following clubs should we finish ahead of:

Manchester United
Manchester City
Arsenal
Liverpool
Tottenham
Chelsea

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

It's not bizarre at all, you haven't stated your criteria.

He's asked you a simple question, who of the teams that have finished above us, do you think we should have done better than, in the last 6 years & why.

It's a simple question, use whatever criteria you see fit lad, to justify your logic.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

I know you said that - I didn't mean you, I mean the people who believe the club will implode if he leaves.

I must admit I just assumed you thought he'd done well in cup competitions, otherwise I fail to see the reason you're arguing to the contrary!!!

In regards to the League Cup specifically, I've said in this thread somewhere that we're historically bad in that cup, but just because we have been awful in 1973 or whatever doesn't automatically mean it makes Moyes' record any better between 2002 and 2013.

Because your glib comment saying that he should have achieved multiple finals in the domestic cup comeptitions was totally unrealistic based on both historical precedents & current financial realities.

Of course we'd all want more than we've had, so would Moyes & the playing staff, but to suggest that it should somehow have been expected is wrong, as we have no devine right to anything, nor have we had the money to buy finals & pots, like some of our peers.

 

[Tubey]

I'm not narrowing it down to specific criteria, I am asking you to take everything into account.

Given everything we know about every club which of the following clubs should we finish ahead of:

Manchester United
Manchester City
Arsenal
Liverpool
Tottenham
Chelsea

He's asked you a simple question, who of the teams that have finished above us, do you think we should have done better than, in the last 6 years & why.

It's a simple question, use whatever criteria you see fit lad, to justify your logic.

Well in that case, I've answered the question. Several times.

QPR have a bigger net spend than Moyes has over the Premier League era, so if you use that criteria, QPR "should" finish above Everton. Everton have a high wage bill, so if you use that criteria, Everton "should" finish wherever we are in that league table every year.

I don't use the term "should", I use the word "could". For example, this season we have started off brilliantly, yet we're failing to convert. Same as a lot of recent seasons were we've ended brilliantly but then started badly. We "could" have done differently; I take a holistic view of the situation and, in my view, there's been a few occasions where Moyes "could" have done a lot, lot better than he eventually did in both league and cup competitions.

Because your glib comment saying that he should have achieved multiple finals in the domestic cup comeptitions was totally unrealistic based on both historical precedents & current financial realities.

Of course we'd all want more than we've had, so would Moyes & the playing staff, but to suggest that it should somehow have been expected is wrong, as we have no devine right to anything, nor have we had the money to buy finals & pots, like some of our peers.

How? Seriously, by those parameters, how is it "totally unrealistic" to expect Moyes to convert some of the more glaring opportunities he's had to actual success?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

That's far too simplistic - if you went through those cup runs you'll see big upsets as a result of a manager giving it a go. Look at our run to the final; we knocked out United. Cup runs very rarely require knocking out lesser opposition alone.

Your overall point is valid but I'm interpreting it a completely different way. If we had a manager who was better at managing expectation levels in the one off games, we'd get over those hurdles a lot more regularly than we have.

Of course, someone will now come back and somehow claim Moyes handles the big games perfectly fine or something. How that claim can be made is beyond my understanding but someone will say it anyway.

Sure, but I'm sure even the most die hard Blue will appreciate we didn't give it a go in that game against United. We did against Liverpool and Villa, but by the time United came around we were generally hanging on for penalties.

Even then, if I recall, United played a weakened team in that semi-final, with Rooney, Ronaldo and van der Sar not even on the bench. They had a CL semi-final to contest, so arguably bigger fish to worry about.

 

[Brennan]

Spurs have won one league cup and gotten to another League cup final in the past ten years.

Net spend - £114m

Everton have reached one FA cup final and a Semi final under Moyes.

Net Spend - £15m

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

Well in that case, I've answered the question. Several times.

QPR have a bigger net spend than Moyes has over the Premier League era, so if you use that criteria, QPR "should" finish above Everton. Everton have a high wage bill, so if you use that criteria, Everton "should" finish wherever we are in that league table every year.

I don't use the term "should", I use the word "could". For example, this season we have started off brilliantly, yet we're failing to convert. Same as a lot of recent seasons were we've ended brilliantly but then started badly. We "could" have done differently; I take a holistic view of the situation and, in my view, there's been a few occasions where Moyes "could" have done a lot, lot better than he eventually did in both league and cup competitions.

haha, nice attempt at avoiding having to try & justify the impossible.

QPR are totally irrelevant to the discussion, as they've not finished ahead of us.

So, back to that actual quesion, of the teams who have finished above us in the last 6 years, which ones do you think we should have done better than & why?

If you don't have an answer then just say so....

 

[Tubey]

Spurs have won one league cup and gotten to another League cup final in the past ten years.

Net spend - £114m

Everton have reached one FA cup final and a Semi final under Moyes.

Net Spend - £15m

You won't find me once saying Moyes hasn't done well for his net spend, so I'm failing to see your point.

My issue is his conversion rate when he gets into positions to achieve something. If he's had the squad ability and confidence to get to that point - such as the semi final against a badly out of form Liverpool and a must-win away game against Norwich to maintain a European push, for example - then why does he barely ever convert?

That is an issue that goes beyond finances.

 

[Tubey]

haha, nice attempt at avoiding having to try & justify the impossible.

QPR are totally irrelevant to the discussion, as they've not finished ahead of us.

So, back to that actual quesion, of the teams who have finished above us in the last 6 years, which ones do you think we should have done better than & why?

If you don't have an answer then just say so....

I've answered. In quite a lot of detail actually. I'm avoiding nothing, it's clear what I'm saying.

QPR are relevant, because if you're saying Man United "should" finish above Everton due to the criteria of spending power, then the same logic would imply that QPR "should" finish above Everton.

The twists and turns of any given season and the individual circumstances involved - such as competitors having fixture congestion, a loss of form, a player doing a Tevez or an Odemwingie etc. - means that opportunities have arose multiple times where Moyes "could" have taken his side one step further and capitalised.

He did it once and finished 4th and he did it once for that cup run which unfortunately ended at Chelsea; other than that, every time he "could" have, he hasn't.

 

[Brennan]

You won't find me once saying Moyes hasn't done well for his net spend, so I'm failing to see your point.

My issue is his conversion rate when he gets into positions to achieve something. If he's had the squad ability and confidence to get to that point - such as the semi final against a badly out of form Liverpool and a must-win away game against Norwich to maintain a European push, for example - then why does he barely ever convert?

That is an issue that goes beyond finances.

You mean the Liverpool game where Distin passed the ball to Suarez ?

If that had never happened we would have won that game, imo.

 

[Little Ralphy]

Spurs have won one league cup and gotten to another League cup final in the past ten years.

Net spend - £114m

Everton have reached one FA cup final and a Semi final under Moyes.

Net Spend - £15m

Spurs have had 5 managers in that time period, we've had 1. Net spend isn't the only measuring tool. If it was, why have we failed to beat Oldham in the last two attempts?

 

[kenada_blue]

So what are we all agreeing on?

The club that spends the most money, win everything.

The best we can hope for is 6th and lower in the league based on that.

Moyes has done all he can in 10 years.