"sixth, seventh or eighth the best Everton can do"

[Tubey]

What makes Moyes better? I'd say Royle has the superior managerial record.

RE Portsmouth:

Portsmouth effectively won that FA Cup when they knocked Manchester United out at Old Trafford in one of the earlier rounds. We did something similar in beating Chelsea at Stamford Bridge in 2011 (on penalties) but we were unable to beat Reading in the next round because they have spent so much more money than us.

Royle has a more successful record (hence why Moyes will be historically seen as a "failure" and Dan was 100% correct to point that out), but Moyes is the better overall manager in terms of talent.

Neither are world class managers.

Bold bit is spot on.

 

[kenada_blue]

What makes Moyes better? I'd say Royle has the superior managerial record.

RE Portsmouth:

Portsmouth effectively won that FA Cup when they knocked Manchester United out at Old Trafford in one of the earlier rounds. We did something similar in beating Chelsea at Stamford Bridge in 2011 (on penalties) but we were unable to beat Reading in the next round because they have spent so much more money than us.

Or we bottled it because we were favourites

 

[Tubey]

Or we bottled it because we were favourites

I think he was tongue-in-cheek there mate

 

[Timak]

This, This and This!! I get sick and tired of people using net spend figures as excuses and reasons for how well we can expect to do! Forget the monetary value of players, and assess their qualitative value as a footballer instead. Then you can compare and analyse where we should be as a team. This is the reason why many of us feel we should be doing better. We have players in our team that are comparable if not better than those teams around us challenging for fourth. Moyes has brought in so many quality players at low financial costs, and that is his genius. We are just lucky to have that, where most teams do not and have to spend more to get it! +++

Or Moyes makes those players good.

Pienaar didn't get a kick at Spurs.
Gibson was a laughing stock at Man Utd.

Nobody he has signed at Everton has been subject of a bidding war, they've been players out of sorts at other clubs or signed from lower leagues.

 

[kenada_blue]

Royle has a more successful record (hence why Moyes will be historically seen as a "failure" and Dan was 100% correct to point that out), but Moyes is the better overall manager in terms of talent.

Neither are world class managers.

Bold bit is spot on.

Its one of the many examples isn't it?

You've just knocked out Chelsea at Stamford Bridge. You then lose at home to Reading in the next round.

Stuff like that ends up being completely unsurprising.

 

[kenada_blue]

I think he was tongue-in-cheek there mate

I know. I was just adding to it

 

[Mogwai]

Or Moyes makes those players good.

Pienaar didn't get a kick at Spurs.
Gibson was a laughing stock at Man Utd.

Nobody he has signed at Everton has been subject of a bidding war, they've been players out of sorts at other clubs or signed from lower leagues.

Either way that is still his genius!

 

[Tubey]

Or Moyes makes those players good.

Pienaar didn't get a kick at Spurs.
Gibson was a laughing stock at Man Utd.

Nobody he has signed at Everton has been subject of a bidding war, they've been players out of sorts at other clubs or signed from lower leagues.

... and nobody is saying any different.

The problem is, once he's assembled that side due to his talents in the transfer market, why does he turn into Captain Fail, leading his team of Surrender Monkeys to predictable defeat whenever the expectation level increases by even the slightest amount?

Once again, whenever he "could", he doesn't. It's a contradiction to say we win games because he's assembled a brilliant squad on a budget, but then blame that squad for not getting the job done in the one-off important games because he's restricted by a budget. Both statements cannot be true.

 

[Essex Blue]

Royle has a more successful record (hence why Moyes will be historically seen as a "failure" and Dan was 100% correct to point that out), but Moyes is the better overall manager in terms of talent.

I don't agree.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

This, This and This!! I get sick and tired of people using net spend figures as excuses and reasons for how well we can expect to do! Forget the monetary value of players, and assess their qualitative value as a footballer instead. Then you can compare and analyse where we should be as a team. This is the reason why many of us feel we should be doing better. We have players in our team that are comparable if not better than those teams around us challenging for fourth. Moyes has brought in so many quality players at low financial costs, and that is his genius. We are just lucky to have that, where most teams do not and have to spend more to get it! +++

So basically what you are saying is that because Moyes has managed to turn 'water into wine' in the transfer market, then he should be capable of consistently beating teams with much higher budgets?

Moyes first XI is capable on its day of giving anyone in the division a run for it's money, however, the depth of the squad is terrible in comparison to those sides we haven't finished above in the league & there's therefore no surprise that over a 38 game season, the sides who finished ahead of us, have all (barring Newcastle once!) spent vastly more than us on both wages & fees. They have therefore developed better squads, with quality in depth.

 

[njligernj]

I'm not saying Moyes has done a bad job - I'm saying he's done nothing special, nothing to justify the devotion

because I don't rate Moyes as just one of the best managers in the transfer market, I rate him as THE best manager in world football in the transfer market. He's completely peerless; the facts speak for themselves.

So you don't think being the best manager in all of football at one of the most important aspects of management is "special" or worthy of devotion from some people? I'd agree that it doesn't make him exempt from criticism; I'd also argue that for a club such as ours it's perfectly reasonable (justifiable in other words) for a section of the supporters to be loyal to someone who is the best in the world at something which is one of the main aspects of managing a club. It's especially important as a club with such limited resources. When you actually think about it it's perfectly logical.

You'd rather take a chance with someone else ... fine ... but we should swerve this "I simply don't understand why anyone would think that way" stuff ... you know why.

I worry about the mental state of some of our fans. If I were to rate the club as a whole it would go: Manager 9/10 Players 7/10 Owners 1/10 Yet they devote so much time abusing the best thing about this club and ignore the main problem. I've had dealing with the owners through my time helping KEIOC. Believe me, the issues with this club go FAR deeper than Moyes not bringing Barkely on against Cheltenham or whatever heinous footballing crime is Moyes' latest travesty.

Agreed. Even if you go down to 6/10 for manager ... when the owners are still 1/10 it's pretty silly to be worrying about the 6/10.

I'll call it a "conversion ratio". How many times have we started a season badly but ended solidly, and vice versa? There's no logical reason for it other than mentality and man management.

Really? So the fact we typically sold key players (often with contentious high profile "difficult" transfers) in the summer (and once or twice didn't even replace those players in the same window) isn't a reasonable explanation for our poor starts? We went two years I believe without spending a penny in the transfer market ... but that isn't a logical reason for poor starts? Sometimes the simplest explanation is the best: Most people agree we had a good summer ... we started well; most people agree Jan went pretty badly with another weird transfer fail ... we appear to be finishing poorly.

I don't think the above is the sole reason we have typically had that pattern (although the fact we reversed the criteria and also reversed the results this year is a pretty compelling argument). I do however think it's absurd to say it's not a logical explanation for at least part of our struggles.

This seems the entire problem fans are imbued with fear over what MIGHT happen, can't live life like that.

Nonsense we all (including you) live life like that every single day. We all make decisions based on a risk/reward analysis. Some people think the likelihood of failure is higher than that of success so they are standing pat.

I'll be calling you small time and a believer that football was invented by Sky in 1992.

They say every discussion on the internet ends up at Hitler ... I say on football message boards it's either Hitler or "you think Sky invented football in 1992." This thread has both. WE DID IT!

Lets not take any risks then ever and float around in a mid table abyss

If we're going to take risks I'd rather have taken out a 20m loan* in January.

*I know we can't get any loans. 20m loan from a board member? I know ... ridiculous right? I realize it's not practical but just for the sake of argument if we're talking about calculated risks I believe that would have been a far better risk than a new manager.

But that's the thing you see. I acknowledge Royle had faults - the amazing thing about the Moyes zealots is that regardless of anything to the contrary, he's utterly perfect.

Really?

 

[pfim]

I tend to agree with Moyes, but these comments have no business being in the public domain. Especially for someone who doesn't think his lack of contract isn't a distraction. Because it is, of course. Not to mention his best player is begging Chelsea to come get him.

Shut your mouth and do your job.

 

[Tubey]

Nightmare post to respond to that...

First & Second Post Quoted: Nope, I don't think it's worthy of devotion; I think it's worthy of acknowledgement. I think the overall ability of the manager should be taken on board when talking about how good or otherwise he is. His transfer market nous has nothing to do with his match day tactical ability.

Third Post Quoted: Yes, but they're not the only reasons. Other clubs have had problems. You can't say Moyes has done brilliantly on a budget, and then blame that budget for everything negative. Your examples of this summer and this January... well, in seasons gone by, we've spent money in the summer and started badly, and spent nothing in January and ended brilliantly. You can't cite something as a reason Moyes does something well and then completely disregard the exact same thing for something negative, yet Moyes fans always do this.

Fourth Post Quoted: The overall point about the Premier League era is valid and well you know it. The game has changed markedly, but those who now think Everton are a small club do so based on the Sky era alone and nothing else. Everton are still a big club by any measure other than financial criteria, which is the one most poignant change the modern game has seen since 1992. If you see it on an Everton forum so often, it's because the point is valid.

Fifth Quoted Post: Yes. There's many people on here who flat out refuse to acknowledge Moyes has any faults whatsoever, that he's achieved 100% in everything he's done at Everton and couldn't have possibly done better. In fact, there's a Jason Bourne inspired banned member who had it down to an artform on here.

I tend to agree with Moyes, but these comments have no business being in the public domain. Especially for someone who doesn't think his lack of contract isn't a distraction. Because it is, of course. Not to mention his best player is begging Chelsea to come get him.

Shut your mouth and do your job.

I hate it when someone basically sums up my mini-essay tirades in one paragraph ffs

Top post. He's still an employee at Everton, so he should act like it.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Of course, one mustn't overlook the Pygmalion Effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_effect

 

[Tubey]

Of course, one mustn't overlook the Pygmalion Effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_effect

Agreed. Which is my overall frustration with these comments as I believe you should always aim for the birdie, the eagle and the hole in one rather than the par, to use a crap analogy!