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"sixth, seventh or eighth the best Everton can do"

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So basically what you are saying is that because Moyes has managed to turn 'water into wine' in the transfer market, then he should be capable of consistently beating teams with much higher budgets?

Moyes first XI is capable on its day of giving anyone in the division a run for it's money, however, the depth of the squad is terrible in comparison to those sides we haven't finished above in the league & there's therefore no surprise that over a 38 game season, the sides who finished ahead of us, have all (barring Newcastle once!) spent vastly more than us on both wages & fees. They have therefore developed better squads, with quality in depth.

Ummm no I am not.........I did not say anything about 'consistently beating teams with much higher budgets'. However, based on the quality of our players, including our bench, In comparison we should be performing much better against many teams (not all) with larger and lower financial maneuverability. We can loose all our games to Spurs, Arse, Chelsea ect and still be challenging for fourth.

My main gripe is with those who think we should be happy where we are as our 'budget' justifies that we should be in a much lower position. IMO The quality and depth of our squad suggests that we should be challenging more strongly for a high league and Cup positions
 
Ummm no I am not.........I did not say anything about 'consistently beating teams with much higher budgets'. However, based on the quality of our players, including our bench, In comparison we should be performing much better against many teams (not all) with larger and lower financial maneuverability. We can loose all our games to Spurs, Arse, Chelsea ect and still be challenging for fourth.

My main gripe is with those who think we should be happy where we are as our 'budget' justifies that we should be in a much lower position. IMO The quality and depth of our squad suggests that we should be challenging more strongly for a high league and Cup positions

Which teams out of:

Manchester United
Manchester City
Chelsea
Tottenham
Arsenal

should we be finishing above?

It is all very well having a theoretical view that we should be challenging for higher positions but if you can't tell me which of these clubs you think we should be finishing above then it is all a little academic.

So come on which of these teams should be be finishing above?
 
Your examples of this summer and this January... well, in seasons gone by, we've spent money in the summer and started badly, and spent nothing in January and ended brilliantly.
When we spend money it's because we've sold someone. I could understand a squad being more unsettled by the Lescott transfer saga than they would have been encouraged by the unknowns (at the time to the squad on a personal level not literally unknown players) we got in his place.

Losing a key player, a friend and proven quantity for the team is always going to have more of a negative impact than an unknown coming in (we don't sign typically sign players with enough of a reputation to give morale a boost). Losing your mate from the squad (not Coleman's mate) in a high profile and messy sale is more likely to harm morale than the players looking at a profit and loss sheet and determining that yes we technically spent most of the money from the Lescott sale on new players.

So when the likes of Lescott and Arteta leave it's going to hurt morale even if we technically balance the spreadsheet by bringing in some new faces.

So we generally have lacklustre summers; in recent years we've had Jan lifts from the likes of LD and Pienaar loans. That's our typical pattern (and our results follow those); this year we had a good summer and bad Jan (and the results flipped).

Even years where (in hindsight) we had a good summer were actually regarded negatively at the time. For instance the Fellaini buy was generally considering a late panic buy where we spent too much. I recall that being a negative summer for fan (and likely player) morale even if in retrospect it worked out well.

I could go year by year I guess but in general we do well after we get people in (and don't lose any first choice players) and badly when we get nobody in. Again, I don't think this is the only reason we have that pattern but you said Moyes tactics was the only logical explanation which I do not believe is true (and his tactics wouldn't explain why it's flipped this year).

You may disagree (which is fine) but I don't think my position is wildly illogical.

Fourth Post Quoted: The overall point about the Premier League era is valid and well you know it. The game has changed markedly, but those who now think Everton are a small club do so based on the Sky era alone and nothing else.
Another way to say "don't base you opinions on the Sky era" is to say "don't base your opinions on the last 20 years of factual evidence." Doesn't sound as elitist though so probably won't work.

By the way to save everyone some trouble ... when people say "big club" they generally mean a current (or last few years) CL side. You may not like that (hell I may not like that) but it doesn't make it any less true.

A player isn't going to sign with us because we have the second most points in top flight history (or wherever we are on that table). They will sign with Man City because they are a title contending CL side with tons of cash in 2013.

Everton are still a big club by any measure other than financial criteria, which is the one most poignant change the modern game has seen since 1992.
Players don't care. So when Fellaini says he has to move to a "big club" it means he wants to play CL football. A history lesson about Everton in the 60's is not going to convince him to stay. If you want to win some semantic argument about "big clubs" then maybe you can win it ... but you need to convince players (not us) for it to change anything.

If every fan in the land agreed we are a "big club" but none of the players did then what does that get us? What's the end goal of winning the "big club" designation? The players don't believe we're a big club so we're not a big club. Blame Sky if you like but it won't get us anywhere.

Fifth Quoted Post: Yes. There's many people on here who flat out refuse to acknowledge Moyes has any faults whatsoever, that he's achieved 100% in everything he's done at Everton and couldn't have possibly done better.
I haven't noticed any real "100%ers" but fair enough.

... by the way I am to the point when I think Moyes should leave. However I do not think we should let him go ... I think he should leave. I do not think it's likely that we will improve after he leaves.

Why would we want Moyes to stay? Moot point. Why would Moyes want to stay?

1) Money - If he can make more here than elsewhere maybe he'd stay. Doesn't seem like a recipe for success to have a manager who has given up (because realistically he knows this board won't back him) and just wants to cash in.

2) Love - The idea of a player or manager staying somewhere because they love a club seems antiquated. Plus love only goes so far ... at some point you have to acknowledge the relationship isn't working.

So he should leave ... maybe having our expectations lowered for a few years might make us all enjoy football more (or make us care less). Either way.
 
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Which teams out of:

Manchester United
Manchester City
Chelsea
Tottenham
Arsenal

should we be finishing above?

It is all very well having a theoretical view that we should be challenging for higher positions but if you can't tell me which of these clubs you think we should be finishing above then it is all a little academic.

So come on which of these teams should be be finishing above?

Multiple people have answered you repeatedly, you just refuse to listen. In fact, the guy you're addressing right there has answered your question too. In that very post.

It doesn't help that you can't even answer your own question! You haven't defined "should", yet your expecting peoples answers to fall within your tidy definition before you'll accept it as valid.
 
Which teams out of:

Manchester United
Manchester City
Chelsea
Tottenham
Arsenal

should we be finishing above?

It is all very well having a theoretical view that we should be challenging for higher positions but if you can't tell me which of these clubs you think we should be finishing above then it is all a little academic.

So come on which of these teams should be be finishing above?

Obviously all of them! We are Everton!

In all seriousness I am not too sure how to address all your impertinent rhetoric which has little relevance pertaining to my posts....

BTW Cheers Tubey....your the man!
 
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So in conclusion the people who think we should be doing better than 5th-8th (our highest and lowest finishing place in the last 6 years) won't say which clubs they think we should be finishing above.

I've named one.

I think we should have finished above Newcastle last year.

Other than that I don't think a single team has finished higher than us in the league who we had any realistic chance of finishing above.

That is a stunningly good record for a manager. And backs up exactly the point Moyes was making.
 
So in conclusion the people who think we should be doing better than 5th-8th (our highest and lowest finishing place in the last 6 years) won't say which clubs they think we should be finishing above.

I've named one.

I think we should have finished above Newcastle last year.

Other than that I don't think a single team has finished higher than us in the league who we had any realistic chance of finishing above.

That is a stunningly good record for a manager. And backs up exactly the point Moyes was making.

I think you missed the point of my post....It doesn't matter what any single person thinks we should be achieving. I was trying to convey the point that people should maybe focus more on qualitative factors when developing those opinions.

If you really care about my opinion so much, based on the games I believe we should have and could have performed better in, we would be clearly in 3rd place this season. Remember, 19 points dropped this season from games we could have seen out. I think it is reasonable to expect us with the quality in our squad to have realistically saved around half of those points, hence, placing us in 3rd.
 
I think you missed the point of my post....It doesn't matter what any single person thinks we should be achieving. I was trying to convey the point that people should maybe focus more on qualitative factors when developing those opinions.

If you really care about my opinion so much, based on the games I believe we should have and could have performed better in, we would be clearly in 3rd place this season. Remember, 19 points dropped this season from games we could have seen out. I think it is reasonable to expect us with the quality in our squad to have realistically saved around half of those points, hence, placing us in 3rd.

But we don't perform in isolation.

Fans of Tottenham, Arsenal, Chelsea etc are saying the same.

And they have vastly deeper squads.
 
So in conclusion the people who think we should be doing better than 5th-8th (our highest and lowest finishing place in the last 6 years) won't say which clubs they think we should be finishing above.

I've named one.

I think we should have finished above Newcastle last year.

Other than that I don't think a single team has finished higher than us in the league who we had any realistic chance of finishing above.

That is a stunningly good record for a manager. And backs up exactly the point Moyes was making.

I think the issue is if you aim for 6th-8th, when you start well and are higher up in the table like we were at the start of the season you are more likely to fall off and not do as well.

It slows down momentum and players think that the defeats don't matter because they're still above their target. Aiming low and succeeding is not success.
 

I think you missed the point of my post....It doesn't matter what any single person thinks we should be achieving. I was trying to convey the point that people should maybe focus more on qualitative factors when developing those opinions.

If you really care about my opinion so much, based on the games I believe we should have and could have performed better in, we would be clearly in 3rd place this season. Remember, 19 points dropped this season from games we could have seen out. I think it is reasonable to expect us with the quality in our squad to have realistically saved around half of those points, hence, placing us in 3rd.

Good point that.
 
The fact that makes it all the more disappointing is that their was a fair deal of tangible belief from our manager and fans after that Spurs comeback that we would finally get that top 4 finish and push on, that feeling got stronger after the imminent signing of Leroy Fer was announced when were joint 4th and had a reasonable run of games coming up off the back of two wins in a row against Newcastle and WBA, however, we screw up any deals set to be completed, and then instead of kicking on, We win no games after it and end up 6 points(possibly 7) off 4th place! Only Everton and our long-suffering supporters could have hope given to them and then have it dramatically ragged away in a matter of weeks. 6th would be fapworthy now and Europa league football, not bad but it means Fellaini will go and we miss out on the big money coming in from Champions league. But back in August I would of taken our current position in February the way the last few seasons have gone has dampened our expectations.
If we finish 4th now, with the negativity surrounding our manager and fans, I will quite willingly get in a homosexual gang bang with everyone on this forum and send a picture to my parents via post.
 
The fact that makes it all the more disappointing is that their was a fair deal of tangible belief from our manager and fans after that Spurs comeback that we would finally get that top 4 finish and push on, that feeling got stronger after the imminent signing of Leroy Fer was announced when were joint 4th and had a reasonable run of games coming up off the back of two wins in a row against Newcastle and WBA, however, we screw up any deals set to be completed, and then instead of kicking on, We win no games after it and end up 6 points(possibly 7) off 4th place! Only Everton and our long-suffering supporters could have hope given to them and then have it dramatically ragged away in a matter of weeks. 6th would be fapworthy now and Europa league football, not bad but it means Fellaini will go and we miss out on the big money coming in from Champions league. But back in August I would of taken our current position in February the way the last few seasons have gone has dampened our expectations.
If we finish 4th now, with the negativity surrounding our manager and fans, I will quite willingly get in a homosexual gang bang with everyone on this forum and send a picture to my parents via post.

Why wait?
 
The fact that makes it all the more disappointing is that their was a fair deal of tangible belief from our manager and fans after that Spurs comeback that we would finally get that top 4 finish and push on, that feeling got stronger after the imminent signing of Leroy Fer was announced when were joint 4th and had a reasonable run of games coming up off the back of two wins in a row against Newcastle and WBA, however, we screw up any deals set to be completed, and then instead of kicking on, We win no games after it and end up 6 points(possibly 7) off 4th place! Only Everton and our long-suffering supporters could have hope given to them and then have it dramatically ragged away in a matter of weeks. 6th would be fapworthy now and Europa league football, not bad but it means Fellaini will go and we miss out on the big money coming in from Champions league. But back in August I would of taken our current position in February the way the last few seasons have gone has dampened our expectations.
If we finish 4th now, with the negativity surrounding our manager and fans, I will quite willingly get in a homosexual gang bang with everyone on this forum and send a picture to my parents via post.

It would be easier to email in this day and age, plus I don't think its right to licks the queen face on the stamp after its licked our cocks clean.
 

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