"sixth, seventh or eighth the best Everton can do"

[Little Ralphy]

You mean the Liverpool game where Distin passed the ball to Suarez ?

If that had never happened we would have won that game, imo.

One of my main gripes with Moyes would be that if we do well it always seems to be down to him working with such a limited budget, but if we fail to achieve it's the players fault for making mistakes or not converting chances.

 

[Seamus Colemole]

I'm not narrowing it down to specific criteria, I am asking you to take everything into account.

Given everything we know about every club which of the following clubs should we finish ahead of:

Manchester United
Manchester City
Arsenal
Liverpool
Tottenham
Chelsea

We "should" finish above clubs who we are better than, how much their squads actually cost means f all once they are assembled, its the ability that wins games not price tags.

If we shouldn't finish above those teams cause they spent more than us why should we finish above the likes of qpr, villa Newcastle or anyone else who spent more than us.
Money doesnt mean a damn thing if you spend it on crap.
Don't we have the fifth highest points total of teams since Moyes arrived? Achieved spending way less than plenty of teams so its not money spent and price tags that should determine where we finish but overall ability of manager and players.
Having the money Moyes does means its damn hard to achieve what he has but he proved he has the ability to do well despite that, yet for some people lack of money seems to be the go to excuse for any kind of failure.
Overall I'd day we have justvas much chance of finishing fourth as spurs, arsenal and Liverpool do, all things pretty even, we've finished above those teams a few times despite the money difference so if we don't this season that's far from the only reason is it?

 

[Brennan]

Spurs have had 5 managers in that time period, we've had 1. Net spend isn't the only measuring tool. If it was, why have we failed to beat Oldham in the last two attempts?

People say overall he has not done well enough in the cups, it's a myth. When you look at our last 15 cup defeats only 5 have been lower league opposition, and only 2 have been what would be considered as 'shock' results, Oldham and Brentford.

His record is perfectly consistent with a manager who has barely had any money to spend, as evidenced by the fact that no team below us in the league has consistently outperformed us in cup competitions.

 

[Brennan]

So what are we all agreeing on?

The club that spends the most money, win everything.

The best we can hope for is 6th and lower in the league based on that.

Moyes has done all he can in 10 years.

Which is why i struggle to see how anybody can brand his tenure a 'failure'.

 

[kenada_blue]

You won't find me once saying Moyes hasn't done well for his net spend, so I'm failing to see your point.

My issue is his conversion rate when he gets into positions to achieve something. If he's had the squad ability and confidence to get to that point - such as the semi final against a badly out of form Liverpool and a must-win away game against Norwich to maintain a European push, for example - then why does he barely ever convert?

That is an issue that goes beyond finances.

In a nutshell.

We aren't 6 points off 4th because we lose loads of games, we're off because we fail to turn draws into wins and are unable to beat the lower teams even at home.

A lot has to be said for the teams mentality than it does for finances.

Finances come into it when you get out classed by a stronger more expensive team.

There's countless times when it comes to the crunch we bottle it.

Finances then end up being an excuse when you can't beat Norwich, Reading, Villa and Spurs romp away with wins.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

I've answered. In quite a lot of detail actually. I'm avoiding nothing, it's clear what I'm saying.

QPR are relevant, because if you're saying Man United "should" finish above Everton due to the criteria of spending power, then the same logic would imply that QPR "should" finish above Everton.

The twists and turns of any given season and the individual circumstances involved - such as competitors having fixture congestion, a loss of form, a player doing a Tevez or an Odemwingie etc. - means that opportunities have arose multiple times where Moyes "could" have taken his side one step further and capitalised.

He did it once and finished 4th and he did it once for that cup run which unfortunately ended at Chelsea; other than that, every time he "could" have, he hasn't.

That's total waffle & a complete avoidance of the actual question asked.

You won't answer it, as there's no case you can argue with any credibility, as to why you think Everton should have finished ahead of;

Manchester United
Manchester City
Arsenal
Liverpool
Tottenham
Chelsea

 

[Tubey]

I've answered repeatedly and Death/Kenada has also done so above with basically the same response; you've stopped discussing like an adult, convinced you've got me in some sort of corner when you patently haven't. You're simply ignoring my responses, so I'm just going to have to ignore yours.

 

[kenada_blue]

Which is why i struggle to see how anybody can brand his tenure a 'failure'.

They were more questions than statements to be fair.

I've always said in 20 years or so time Moyes wont be looked at in the same manor as Catterick and Kendal. He'll be looked at as a very good manager who brought stability and credibility back to the club. Never a great.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

I've answered repeatedly and Death/Kenada has also done so above with basically the same response; you've stopped discussing like an adult, convinced you've got me in some sort of corner when you patently haven't. You're simply ignoring my responses, so I'm just going to have to ignore yours.

lol, Ok mate, dodge away, it's fine.

 

[Little Ralphy]

People say overall he has not done well enough in the cups, it's a myth. When you look at our last 15 cup defeats only 5 have been lower league opposition, and only 2 have been what would be considered as 'shock' results, Oldham and Brentford.

His record is perfectly consistent with a manager who has barely had any money to spend, as evidenced by the fact that no team below us in the league has consistently outperformed us in cup competitions.

I've no idea why you've said last 15 cup defeats but that doesn't really matter either way.

It's not about consistently performing in cup competitions, it's about winning the cup. Who cares if you get to the qtr final every single year but never win it. I'd say anyone who has won a Cup in the last 10 years has done better than Everton have in the cup. Cups really are all about winning them.

 

[Brennan]

I've no idea why you've said last 15 cup defeats but that doesn't really matter either way.

It's not about consistently performing in cup competitions, it's about winning the cup. Who cares if you get to the qtr final every single year but never win it. I'd say anyone who has won a Cup in the last 10 years has done better than Everton have in the cup. Cups really are all about winning them.

Because the site i found which laid them out easily only listed our last 15 defeats.

 

[Essex Blue]

Is Royle a better manager than Moyes? No, because overall he just isn't.

What makes Moyes better? I'd say Royle has the superior managerial record.

RE Portsmouth:

Portsmouth effectively won that FA Cup when they knocked Manchester United out at Old Trafford in one of the earlier rounds. We did something similar in beating Chelsea at Stamford Bridge in 2011 (on penalties) but we were unable to beat Reading in the next round because they have spent so much more money than us.

 

[Mogwai]

We "should" finish above clubs who we are better than, how much their squads actually cost means f all once they are assembled, its the ability that wins games not price tags.

If we shouldn't finish above those teams cause they spent more than us why should we finish above the likes of qpr, villa Newcastle or anyone else who spent more than us.
Money doesnt mean a damn thing if you spend it on crap.
Don't we have the fifth highest points total of teams since Moyes arrived? Achieved spending way less than plenty of teams so its not money spent and price tags that should determine where we finish but overall ability of manager and players.
Having the money Moyes does means its damn hard to achieve what he has but he proved he has the ability to do well despite that, yet for some people lack of money seems to be the go to excuse for any kind of failure.
Overall I'd day we have justvas much chance of finishing fourth as spurs, arsenal and Liverpool do, all things pretty even, we've finished above those teams a few times despite the money difference so if we don't this season that's far from the only reason is it?

This, This and This!! I get sick and tired of people using net spend figures as excuses and reasons for how well we can expect to do! Forget the monetary value of players, and assess their qualitative value as a footballer instead. Then you can compare and analyse where we should be as a team. This is the reason why many of us feel we should be doing better. We have players in our team that are comparable if not better than those teams around us challenging for fourth. Moyes has brought in so many quality players at low financial costs, and that is his genius. We are just lucky to have that, where most teams do not and have to spend more to get it! +++

 

[ijjysmith]

Haha does that fence have sharp spikes on it??!

I'm well confused mate.

I want change, but then I don't want change at the same time.

HELP ME

 

[Timak]

We "should" finish above clubs who we are better than, how much their squads actually cost means f all once they are assembled, its the ability that wins games not price tags.

Agreed.

If we shouldn't finish above those teams cause they spent more than us why should we finish above the likes of qpr, villa Newcastle or anyone else who spent more than us.
Money doesnt mean a damn thing if you spend it on crap.

Partially agree although there becomes a point where money DOES make a difference. Moyes has shown it is possible to consistently finish above teams that spend a LOT more than us. But not when we are talking hundreds of millions. At that point the sheer number of options and ability to attract players/managers does make a difference.

Don't we have the fifth highest points total of teams since Moyes arrived? Achieved spending way less than plenty of teams so its not money spent and price tags that should determine where we finish but overall ability of manager and players.
Having the money Moyes does means its damn hard to achieve what he has but he proved he has the ability to do well despite that, yet for some people lack of money seems to be the go to excuse for any kind of failure.

However good the driver is at some point a decent driver in a better car is going to win more races. If Moyes is driving a Focus and beating every other driver of similar cars every year then he is clearly a good driver. If he is also beating those in Porshes then he is a VERY good driver. If you expect him to beat the Ferraris then you are being unrealistic. At a certain point you are getting everything you can out of the car.

Overall I'd day we have justvas much chance of finishing fourth as spurs, arsenal and Liverpool do, all things pretty even, we've finished above those teams a few times despite the money difference so if we don't this season that's far from the only reason is it?

We've been nowhere near Arsenal before and not finished above Spurs since they increased their wage bill from our level to a CL team level.