"sixth, seventh or eighth the best Everton can do"

[EFC Si]

Who's bigger?

Arsenal
United
Kopites
Chelsea
City

The last two solely because of money.

Depends what define's 'Big' these days....in terms of fanbase then we're up there, in terms of success we're upper average/fairly small. At least in everyone else's eyes

 

[electricblue]

No he isn't, he said "if you ask the people who know football". If he had a contrary opinion, he would then be tacitly stating that he doesn't know football.

What you are doing is spinning, his actual words are completely different. You go on his actual words.

I assume "We´ve probably been playing at our maximum for a long time at Everton" in the very next sentence is everyone else's opinion and he's quoting it as a passive observer too?

Pedantic logic gone mad.

 

[bluebottle]

No he isn't, he said "if you ask the people who know football". If he had a contrary opinion, he would then be tacitly stating that he doesn't know football.

What you are doing is spinning, his actual words are completely different. You go on his actual words.

I assume "We´ve probably been playing at our maximum for a long time at Everton" in the very next sentence is everyone else's opinion and he's quoting it as a passive observer too?

He is not saying if you disagree you dont know football. He is saying peoples expectations of Everton outside of the club is around these postions. Also you seem to be telling people they are spinning when you are being a hypocrite.

 

[Tubey]

Pedantic logic gone mad.

It's not pedantic, it's common sense! He was asked the question, he answered it, and used the overall field of "people who know football" to justify his own stance.

People would argue black is white on here rather than admit they're wrong FFS. It's not a weakness!

He is not saying if you disagree you dont know football. He is saying peoples expectations of Everton outside of the club is around these postions. Also you seem to be unaware you are telling people they are spinning when you are being a hypocrite.

I'm not spinning, I'm interpreting his word to the letter. The literal opposite to spinning.

 

[EFC Si]

I'd say being one of the top 10 clubs in Britain qualifies you as a big club. We're not Shrewsbury or the MK Dons are we?

Let's put it this way, I don't think we're "small" enough to allow a manager who has won nothing to boost his own credentials by making out his own shortcomings are the result of Everton doing the "best they can" by finishing 8th.

What Moyes has said isn't true at all. It's the net result of the remarkable lowering of expectations under his management - the club has done well, whilst the Moyes myth has expanded.

Here's what does my head in - when Everton do well, it's because of Moyes. When Everton do badly, it's because of Kenwright.

We normally start the season badly and end strongly, and people excuse it because of the squad etc., not because of Moyes. This season, we've started strongly and we're ending badly, yet people once again point at the squad and refuse to blame Moyes.

We've had seasons were we've played exactly the same amount of games as now with the same size squad and kicked on after Christmas, so I'm not buying this "the squad are knackered" nonsense. We went out early in the League Cup and have had one game a week on average.

So why is Moyes not blamed for not having the ability to get the job done over a season? Why is it that the start of the season was great because of Moyes, but what's happening now is someone elses fault.

Always someone elses fault, that's the common theme with him. If the best Everton can do is 8th, it's not because the club is too limited to do better (name seven better clubs?), it's because he isn't good enough at his job.

I think also the players have to take a large share of the blame this time round; or especially for our last few performances.

 

[ToffeeDan]

Sorry but I was patient when we struggled, expecting us to come good - and we did. Now I see that going backwards from a position of strength and it is very frustrating. You make one step forward the objective has to be to keep it going. Sometimes there's too much complacency about the club - the board mostly for not selling to the right person, the manager for being so negative instead of going do-or-die (like we do at home against the best sides) - where's the spirit we saw (just one time only) at Old Trafford last year?

 

[D410]

I'd say being one of the top 10 clubs in Britain qualifies you as a big club. We're not Shrewsbury or the MK Dons are we?

Let's put it this way, I don't think we're "small" enough to allow a manager who has won nothing to boost his own credentials by making out his own shortcomings are the result of Everton doing the "best they can" by finishing 8th.

What Moyes has said isn't true at all. It's the net result of the remarkable lowering of expectations under his management - the club has done well, whilst the Moyes myth has expanded.

Here's what does my head in - when Everton do well, it's because of Moyes. When Everton do badly, it's because of Kenwright.

We normally start the season badly and end strongly, and people excuse it because of the squad etc., not because of Moyes. This season, we've started strongly and we're ending badly, yet people once again point at the squad and refuse to blame Moyes.

We've had seasons were we've played exactly the same amount of games as now with the same size squad and kicked on after Christmas, so I'm not buying this "the squad are knackered" nonsense. We went out early in the League Cup and have had one game a week on average.

So why is Moyes not blamed for not having the ability to get the job done over a season? Why is it that the start of the season was great because of Moyes, but what's happening now is someone elses fault.

Always someone elses fault, that's the common theme with him. If the best Everton can do is 8th, it's not because the club is too limited to do better (name seven better clubs?), it's because he isn't good enough at his job.

I could hammer away at this even if I am not a Moyes fan but whats the point..you,ve already made your mind up.

 

[bluebottle]

I'm not spinning, I'm interpreting his word to the letter. The literal opposite to spinning.

You are choosing to ignore other meanings of it though. You also arent interpreting to the letter, because he doesnt say anything about his own opinion.

 

[EFC Si]

It is.

"Most seasons we've tended to finish sixth, seventh or eighth and if you ask the people who know football they would say that´s about as good as Everton can do."

So, if you ask Moyes "What is about as good as Everton can do in the Premier League?" then it's one of two answers.


If he knows football, then he answers "sixth, seventh or eighth".

If he doesn't know football, he answers something else.


There's no inbetween, nothing to spin.

Think you're over analysing it. Obviously he does know about Football, but to me the context he's speaking in indicates he's definitely referring to people in the football world outside those at Everton, thus not including himself. That's surely how everyone else read it?

 

[Tubey]

You are choosing to ignore other meanings of it though. You also arent interpreting to the letter, because he doesnt say anything about his own opinion.

Oh right.

Define the word "we" for me in the following sentence.

We've probably been playing at our maximum for a long time at Everton.

I mean come on...

 

[alpha1]

Except it's not true is it? We're still comfortably one of the top ten clubs in Britain.

It's only true in the minds of those who think football was invented by Sky in 1992, and in the mind of a Scottish manager who hasn't won anything to speak of.

Agree, I still think we are top 5 material when it comes to big clubs.
Without their "strokes of luck" Man City and Chelsea would be nowhere near where they are now.
All it takes nowadays to make you a big club is a rich man. It's as easy as that! The problem is that not every rich man enjoys football or wants to get involved in football.

 

[Tubey]

Think you're over analysing it. Obviously he does know about Football, but to me the context he's speaking in indicates he's definitely referring to people in the football world outside those at Everton, thus not including himself. That's surely how everyone else read it?

The very next sentence...

We´ve probably been playing at our maximum for a long time at Everton.


?????

 

[EFC Si]

Oh right.

Define the word "we" for me in the following sentence.



I mean come on...

He says earlier in the quote 'We´re still realistically playing for a place in the Champions League.' Which would be a total contradiction if he did mean to include himself in the '6th, 7th or 8th' statement.

 

[electricblue]

He says earlier in the quote 'We´re still realistically playing for a place in the Champions League.' Which would be a total contradiction if he did mean to include himself in the '6th, 7th or 8th' statement.

Exactly.

File under 'Moyes publically tries to dampen expectations while privately getting it into the players' heads that they are better than what they are'.

There have been plently of these during his tenure. They are only annoying for us fans if taken too literally. Personally I let these sort of comments go in one ear and out the other. Because you can be sure as night follows day that it's not what he is saying in private.

 

[Tubey]

I could hammer away at this even if I am not a Moyes fan but whats the point..you,ve already made your mind up.

You know what's weird? There's this view on here that I'm completely anti-Moyes no matter what.

Weird thing is, every transfer window I'm the calmest person on here, because I know that whoever Moyes targets will invariably turn out to be superb - because I don't rate Moyes as just one of the best managers in the transfer market, I rate him as THE best manager in world football in the transfer market. He's completely peerless; the facts speak for themselves.

The problem is, I don't let that one absolutely amazing talent he has overshadow his shortcomings. So whilst I will praise him to the rooftops (and I have done on GOT many times) for what he gets right, I'm damn well going to slate him for what I see him getting wrong.

My opinion is always up for changing about anything - only a fool would set his viewpoint as correct and refuse to shift it no matter what.

So if you want to hammer away, please go ahead. Just don't expect me not to answer back, and if my opinion is as forceful as yours, it's not because I'm disrespecting your opinion, it's because I took it on board, considered it and found it to be wrong.