Who should be starting keeper vs. Sunderland

[Kev50]

It's very difficult for anyone to judge, outside the camp in my opinion. Most of the problems have been our defence of aerial balls from set pieces. Now it could very well be that in view of Tims previous difficulty with these situations it was agreed this season that the centre backs are charged to deal with them eg Ings W Brom and the second Arsenal goal. If that is the case then I can understand Bobs defence of Tim if it is in fact th centre backs who have gone awol

 

[ilikecheese]

I don't think that's the case at all.

You are perfectly correct in saying 13/14 was a good season for him......his best at EFC IMO.

But I have never felt Timmy was not loved by the fans......quite the reverse, in fact.

The denizens of this forum were as excited as the folks in Boston, NYC or Cleveland as Timmy starred for the States in Brazil

We have embraced all the Americans who have played here.....Joe Max, Brian McBride and Sir Landon all became firm favourites so there is no anti Americanism.

Nor has a player been unpopular simply on the basis of he once played for United.

No, Timmy is out of favour with us these days because he has become a massive liability and we think his understudy deserves a run in the side.

There is a vocal contingent of this fan base who have always maintained that he was never good enough for Everton.

 

[Khalekan]

That's not true. He played well against Spurs and pretty much earned us the point at WHL, and he's played ok in other games. It's not black and white.

I'm all for demoting him, but you're creating a caricature of him and his input this season. He's had a lot of howlers, but we've been doing well as a team until the last two league games and you really dont change that around too much.

To read the thoughts of some on this issue you'd think we'd been beaten every week with Howard throwing the ball into the net and Martinez is blind to it all.

It is IN FACT a lot more complex than hooking Howard. It has been until this point anyway, but if he lets the side down on Sunday there'll be no alternative to benching him from that point.

OK.....he has played one complete good match this season.

That is not the standard you or me need to be seeing at our team.

The rest of the time his performances have been like the proverbial curate's egg.

He was on course for having a point saving, excellent game against Man. City........until Wee Raheem embarrassed him at his near post and goodness knows what he was doing for their second.

We need a goalkeeper who is good for ninety minutes in most of our games.

And we need a manager prepared to act when he is not cutting the mustard.

 

[Khalekan]

There is a vocal contingent of this fan base who have always maintained that he was never good enough for Everton.

They can't have been all that vocal......leastways not in the Upper Bullens round where I sit

 

[davek]

OK.....he has played one complete good match this season.

That is not the standard you or me need to be seeing at our team.

The rest of the time his performances have been like the proverbial curate's egg.

He was on course for having a point saving, excellent game against Man. City........until Wee Raheem embarrassed him at his near post and goodness knows what he was doing for their second.

We need a goalkeeper who is good for ninety minutes in most of our games.

And we need a manager prepared to act when he is not cutting the mustard.

I agree entirely. Of course we need better. But that's not the issue here. Martinez is being slated for taking the decision to put TH back in goal on Sunday. My point is that it's not the bloody minded decision it's being portrayed as. There's more to this than meets the eye - as I've tried to argue.

 

[Jimmywhack]

OK.....he has played one complete good match this season.

until Wee Raheem embarrassed him at his near post .

Kolarov

 

[Joey66]

I agree entirely. Of course we need better. But that's not the issue here. Martinez is being slated for taking the decision to put TH back in goal on Sunday. My point is that it's not the bloody minded decision it's being portrayed as. There's more to this than meets the eye - as I've tried to argue.

Do you think Tim has it his contract he has to play every prem game if fit , because I am beginning to wonder about that!

 

[Khalekan]

Exactly, it's not fear of making a tough decision. As you point out, he makes those calls. Distin is a good example of what I'm driving at too. By all accounts he was a divisive figure. You cant lay that at TH's door. He seems genuinely respected by all the squad and has, by and large, done a decent job here at Everton since he arrived. A manager has to be respectful of that and give him (what I believe will be) a last chance to get back on track.

It's being judicious and the sign of good man management.

Then what do you mean when you said he shouldn't drop him now because of the "depth of feeling" toward Tim in the squad and that he will "give him enough rope" so as the other players will know why he had to be dropped if and when he eventually does so?

If Bobby feels Tim needs dropping right now then there should be no question about the other players' feelings toward it.

They watch the replays as well as us......they know how much of an Achilles Heel he has become.

The centre backs in particular are suffering from Tim not having their backs at crucial times.

I would very much doubt there would be one iota of damage to dressing room morale if Joel is handed a start on Sunday.

So you have to think there is sommat else to it.

Though I am darned if I can think of owt

 

[Khalekan]

Kolarov

Him too

 

[bcblue1878]

So if he were to bench Howard it'd look like he was following the diktat of the media. I'm sure that'd go down well in the dressing room.

It's a perception that the team are fed up with Howard. You dont know that. They might think that overall he's got the history that backs up his status as number 1. We just dont know and because of that it's hard to judge exactly how quickly Martinez needs to act in this situation.

Sorry Davek but in my humble opinion I reckon your wrong on this! Headed goals against West Brom, Liverpool and two against Arsenal all conceded from inside the six yard box tell me that Martinez needs to act pretty quick on this! I think the reaction of the players on the pitch after last night's penalties shows what they thought of Joel's performance during the match and during the pens! With a certain Mr Allardyce at Goodison on Sunday do you think his team talk will involve tippy tappy football or do you think he may well say "Get that ball in the box as quick as possible and attack it"? Goodison would be toxic, if that's the right word, if a goal on Sunday for Sunderland comes from a header inside the six yard box, and that would not do either Tim Howard or Martinez any favours at all!
By the way the following week, if he's fit, Andy Carroll and Slaven Bilic will be rubbing their hands in glee at the prospect of Tim Howard being between the posts at Upton Park
This business of "undroppable" players smacks of the Moyes/Neville scenario and if anything sends a far worse message to the rest of the squad!

 

[diggerdestroyer]

Joel. Cannot understand how a manager can back a keeper who has time and time again over the last 2 and current seasons make mistake after mistake. He must average 1 good game in 5 now. The other 4 he plays include individual mistake after mistake not commanding his area of 6 yards seemingly afraid to come for a cross and getting caught at his near post numerous times.
I was at a coaching seminar last year. The utd goalkeeping coach at the time howard was there was at it and I was asking him re howard. He said was was a decent keeper but was too mistake prone to be a top 4 keeper and that's why utd got rid.

He not a top 14 keeper now. Not good enough having 1 excellent game and being rubbish for the next 4.

Give Joel a chance before howard starts getting lots and lots of boos

 

[davek]

Sorry Davek but in my humble opinion I reckon your wrong on this! Headed goals against West Brom, Liverpool and two against Arsenal all conceded from inside the six yard box tell me that Martinez needs to act pretty quick on this! I think the reaction of the players on the pitch after last night's penalties shows what they thought of Joel's performance during the match and during the pens! With a certain Mr Allardyce at Goodison on Sunday do you think his team talk will involve tippy tappy football or do you think he may well say "Get that ball in the box as quick as possible and attack it"? Goodison would be toxic, if that's the right word, if a goal on Sunday for Sunderland comes from a header inside the six yard box, and that would not do either Tim Howard or Martinez any favours at all!
By the way the following week, if he's fit, Andy Carroll and Slaven Bilic will be rubbing their hands in glee at the prospect of Tim Howard being between the posts at Upton Park
This business of "undroppable" players smacks of the Moyes/Neville scenario and if anything sends a far worse message to the rest of the squad!

I think we're at tipping point with the Howard issue. It could all unravel very quickly for him with another poor display in the next game. That's why I said Martinez is prepared to hold off making the decision. It's ok us saying 'get him out of there' and fuming about Howard (and I stress I'm in that camp too) but he's the manager and has to approach this issue diplomatically.

I genuinely think RM knows Howard is drinking in the last chance saloon and if he obviously fails in the next game he's out.

 

[davek]

Joel. Cannot understand how a manager can back a keeper who has time and time again over the last 2 and current seasons make mistake after mistake. He must average 1 good game in 5 now. The other 4 he plays include individual mistake after mistake not commanding his area of 6 yards seemingly afraid to come for a cross and getting caught at his near post numerous times.
I was at a coaching seminar last year. The utd goalkeeping coach at the time howard was there was at it and I was asking him re howard. He said was was a decent keeper but was too mistake prone to be a top 4 keeper and that's why utd got rid.

He not a top 14 keeper now. Not good enough having 1 excellent game and being rubbish for the next 4.

Give Joel a chance before howard starts getting lots and lots of boos

Tony Coton was the United GK coach at the time and he and TH did not get on. Howard was scathing about him in his biography.

I suspect that might have coloured your United associate's view of him.

 

[bcblue1878]

I think we're at tipping point with the Howard issue. It could all unravel very quickly for him with another poor display in the next game. That's why I said Martinez is prepared to hold off making the decision. It's ok us saying 'get him out of there' and fuming about Howard (and I stress I'm in that camp too) but he's the manager and has to approach this issue diplomatically.

I genuinely think RM knows Howard is drinking in the last chance saloon and if he obviously fails in the next game he's out.

Four goals in those three games I mentioned tells me its unravelled (?) pretty quickly already. The most diplomatic thing Roberto could do is tell Howard he's out for a while, as Pellegrini did with Joe Hart last year, and tell Joel the shirt's his for the immediate future! This is a big call by Martinez because if TH messes up it won't just be him in the firing line Roberto will be as well big time!

 

[Arteta2391]

I really do feel for goalkeepers

you either love them or hate them or feel completely indifferent about them.