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The Moment You Knew He Had Failed...

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Benitez- the first half vs Wolves after the Watford thrashing (i put that down to being an anomaly) but that slow, passive first half vs Wolves when virtually any manager would insist a team who'd just be thumped at home, would be straight out the blocks and hunting down every ball, but this just summed him up.

Roberto- Being 3-2 vs Stoke with a few mins to go. I took my daughter that day and we left just before their equaliser, as i knew they'd score and i wanted her to think we won- as it was part of her 10th birthday present. I stayed away from radio and didn't check the full time until i dropped her back at home and had to nip the shop. I was at some traffic lights when i turned on the phone-in to hear "he's gotta go" and went crazy apesh*t at the steering wheel (a bit like Jack in Five Easy Pieces).

Joe- Never playing Limpar that season and wanting to sign Carlton Palmer.

Colin- Nev's childish sit in vs Leeds.
 
But you should. You can't possibly judge if he's failing, right?
I understand what you're trying to say, but I don't think it really works in this instance. What if the club have just asked him to do his best but with no formal target? On that basis he could never be said to have failed, even if we go down. Fairly obviously, people are talking about people failing in their own eyes, I assume the moment they've failed in the board's eyes is the moment they lose their job.
 
Roberto- Being 3-2 vs Stoke with a few mins to go. I took my daughter that day and we left just before their equaliser, as i knew they'd score and i wanted her to think we won- as it was part of her 10th birthday present. I stayed away from radio and didn't check the full time until i dropped her back at home and had to nip the shop. I was at some traffic lights when i turned on the phone-in to hear "he's gotta go" and went crazy apesh*t at the steering wheel (a bit like Jack in Five Easy Pieces).
That is some brilliant parenting there. Beautiful work, my friend.
 
To be honest mate, for this discussion I'm less interested in the 'shoulds', but what actual parameters Lampard has been set.

Lots of shrieking and wailing about failure, but what measures? And who has set them?

If you're saying the fans set expectations, well, that's something different isn't it? They're not clear, consistent and vary week to week.

So what has he been set by the club?
Been set to keep the club in the league, but tbh for his cv purposes he should want to aim a bit higher than that imo.
 

Our second top scorer in the league, 2 goals more than Richarlison so far this season, 1 more than Richarlison had scored at this point last season.

I would say Mr Thelwell has played a blinder there by doubling our end product for a third of the price...

(You are right of course but it's funny what stats can do to skew the truth.)


?
 
Martinez - that 3-2 West Ham game when Payet scored late
Koeman - the away leg of that Europa qualifier. We won, but it was shocking
Silva - Norwich (H)

This was the game i finally broke with Martinez. That season was full of games like this. But this one and the in game management was insane. Soon as Lukaku missed the pen to go 3-0 up you just knew we’d get beat.
 
As an Evertonian of 42 years, I have often looked back at managers and other officials at Everton and tried to pinpoint the moment I realised that they had failed and would not make a success of the role they were in.

In my experience, from my perspective, the club usually acts only later than this moment. For example, I "knew" Marcel Brands would not be a success when Everton signed Alex Iwobi. Sure, he's had three decent months, but he has largely been a disastrous waste of money. Arsenal fans are still laughing...

With Roberto, it was the signing of Aiden McGeady. This summed up the recklessness of Martinez: indulging an indisciplined, flaky, flashy luxury player (well, if you shop for luxury in Aldi). As an Irishman, I knew in my bones that this was a fatal error. Roberto's "flash in the pan" made flesh. Still, at that point, Roberto was still in the ascendancy. A 3-0 hammering at Southampton later that year was my moment of confirmation.

With Moyes, it was the cup defeat to Reading when only Man City - who we regularly schooled at the time - remained a real live threat in the competition. Blew his chance.

The Watford hammering under Benitez shook me. For all the controversy of his appointment, he started well, but the wheels came off spectacularly and, given the atmosphere around the club, I felt, deep down, that there was no coming back from that - even if he simply went on to dig his own grave afterwards.

As for Frank, I never rated him. But he earned his shot at proving me wrong at the very end of last season. He oversaw an escape that Houdini would have been proud of - even if, like Harry, he had tied himself in knots first. And his "moment"? Well, despite my scepticism of his abilities, it was only the 3-0 hiding at Bournemouth that completely convinced me that he had passed the point of return. Matter of time now.

Thelwell, for now, hasn't reached that "point". Here's hoping he doesn't.

When did you think "Such and Such" was a busted flush?
FL the Club ,DF ,board Owner all gambled in July on DCL, Rondon improving.
FL thought, defence, mid field we can get by if DCL is back.

Wrong, failed, Maupey never good enough alone.With a decent 9 hell be ok.AG teddies out the cot, downed tools.

Dwight, no decent 9.m???where is the ball going to.
Joke AG as 9???
So gamble has failed.FL thought we can nick a few.
Well 6draws should have been 4, two more wins with DCL, a couple of defeats draws.
8/10
Gamble failed.3Jan earliest two top class fwds in €100million the pair.
Basement bargains, Championship fwds un tried in Prem,Relagated.
Cheap bargains, relagated.

So we have every chance of losing to Wolves,City, Brighton.

No good Sacking Frank because we lose to those three.Partly his fault, players, confidence shattered, belief we can score a couple every game gone.

However,sell Jordan,AG, 5 surplus players Kean,Holgate,Davies,Mina raise money.
Get Bradtgwaite back, got Godfrey.

So , AG Murdyck ,Moise Kean (horse trade with Juventus Max Allegri, 20games back on loan(€10million discount they want.D Gray.
What a forward line.
Bench DCL,Maupey,Cannon, Dwight.

That forward line, right tactics, style keeps us up.

But if we sacking FL do it now.Dont wait until, Wolves,City, Brighton, Southampton.

Its not his fault.Maybe 30%.But he agreed to gamble , play without a Premier League forward line.
 

As an Evertonian of 42 years, I have often looked back at managers and other officials at Everton and tried to pinpoint the moment I realised that they had failed and would not make a success of the role they were in.

In my experience, from my perspective, the club usually acts only later than this moment. For example, I "knew" Marcel Brands would not be a success when Everton signed Alex Iwobi. Sure, he's had three decent months, but he has largely been a disastrous waste of money. Arsenal fans are still laughing...

With Roberto, it was the signing of Aiden McGeady. This summed up the recklessness of Martinez: indulging an indisciplined, flaky, flashy luxury player (well, if you shop for luxury in Aldi). As an Irishman, I knew in my bones that this was a fatal error. Roberto's "flash in the pan" made flesh. Still, at that point, Roberto was still in the ascendancy. A 3-0 hammering at Southampton later that year was my moment of confirmation.
Martinez: QPR; At home, 3-0 up and the crowd get on the players backs for backwards sideways football.
With Moyes, it was the cup defeat to Reading when only Man City - who we regularly schooled at the time - remained a real live threat in the competition. Blew his chance.
Moyes: Spurs game...2005-06(?) bring Hibbert on at 89 mins or some such.
The Watford hammering under Benitez shook me. For all the controversy of his appointment, he started well, but the wheels came off spectacularly and, given the atmosphere around the club, I felt, deep down, that there was no coming back from that - even if he simply went on to dig his own grave afterwards.
Yep; Watford...'good start' not withstanding - confirmed it. But from day one really.
As for Frank, I never rated him. But he earned his shot at proving me wrong at the very end of last season. He oversaw an escape that Houdini would have been proud of - even if, like Harry, he had tied himself in knots first. And his "moment"? Well, despite my scepticism of his abilities, it was only the 3-0 hiding at Bournemouth that completely convinced me that he had passed the point of return. Matter of time now.
He's teetering; 5pts...maybe even 4, depending on the performance, from the next 3 league games = stay of execution.
3pts or lower = He's gone.*
*yes I know 1 game is City away.

Thelwell, for now, hasn't reached that "point". Here's hoping he doesn't.

When did you think "Such and Such" was a busted flush?
 
I understand what you're trying to say, but I don't think it really works in this instance. What if the club have just asked him to do his best but with no formal target? On that basis he could never be said to have failed, even if we go down. Fairly obviously, people are talking about people failing in their own eyes, I assume the moment they've failed in the board's eyes is the moment they lose their job.
I mean, the club would be utterly remiss there, right?
 

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