Ukraine invasion and the sanction of Oligarchs

[Number_25]

Would rather be in the Championship than win anything with an alleged rapist funding the club.

 

[Nymzee]

"No final decision"

It's like a 2 minute convo. "No sirens alright lads? Sorted".

 

[Dixieslaces]

Clearly this thread has morphed into some sort of left/right, right/wrong, he said/she said debating society.

Emotions are high and rightly so, but I guess we are all here to share in the Joy and Impact on Everton, are we not?

Maybe as someone suggested earlier it is time to move it into Current Affairs forum?

UTFT

 

[catcherintherye]

China has 1 million Uyghurs living in Internment camps where women are tortured, raped and sterilised. China are guilty of genocide and ethnic cleansing. The USA may have its problems but to compare the two is frankly absurd.

As I said I am not a fan of the USA or its political system but to compare voter intimidation in the States to ethnic cleansing in China is horrendous. You have just taken Whataboutism to a new level in a bizarre attempt to defend Moshiri, Usmanov and even Putin.

Funny you should bring up the ex President of the United States because you sound like one of his supporters trying to defend the indefensible. Frankly I do not care what other clubs do but to Everton is special. That means having nothing to do with USM and it's owners, who are clearly part of war mongerer Putin's inner circle.

​

I've already told you, that America has it's own camps, interning children for the crime of being an immigrant. Why have you denied that is happening?

Or its police force murdering unarmed black civilians based on race? Or the history of lynchings? Or the segregation they lived under? Or the enslavement they lived under? How would you characterise this? Other than to say any criticism is (and I quote) "absurd".

Trump and his supporters should be thrown in jail. If they were in China they'd be in jail, while sleepy Joe the segregationist allows them to walk free.

And USM, by any objective measure are not part of Putins inner circle.

 

[gwladysnight]

Andrei Skoch has nothing to do with Everton.

When PIF leave Newcastle

Qatar are stripped of the world cup and leave PSG

When UAE and the Chinese leave Man City

When Abramovich leaves Chelsea

When the 20 PL clubs including your beloved Liverpool give their Qatari blood TV money back to BEIN Sports

When the Chinese leave Wolves

After all that happens and football is pure again maybe then I'll agree USM should leave.

Until that day comes I aint advocating cutting my nose off to spite my face and neither should anyone else.

Regardless of what happens at EFC it wont affect Putin and the Ukraine situation.

You know someone has lost an argument when they resort to the kopite jibe.

How can the second-biggest owner of our main sponsor USM and Moshiri's business partner not be connected to Everton. I will spell it out for you 'U' Usmanov, 'S' Skoch, 'M' Moshiri.

You are another exponent of 'Whataboutism'

 

[catcherintherye]

Nah, it'simple. You're just talking bollox and comparing penis to finger.

Ok, how so?

How is PIF involvement in Newcastle, given their bombing campaign any different to being sponsored by a Russian company? I'm all ears on this.

War is war.

 

[EverTheOptimist]

Well that adds nothing to the discussion I'm afraid.

I was pointing out that Russia are not the only country to invade another country post 1945. I stand by that.

As for the inner circle, neither Usmanov or particularly Moshiri are in any way associated with Putins Inner circle. They are not MPs in their Parliament, and are not on any of the senior committees.

They are no more inner circle than John Henry, or Joel Glazier is the inner circle of Trumps America. They are far less inner circle than PIF to Saudis war on Yemen.

Yet I'm being pulled out for pointing these quite obvious things out.

Unfortunately, it is not simple as you put it. If you ignore large swathes of evidence it is simple. If you engage with all of the evidence in its entirety it's actually quite complex.

So when a sports team wins a championship and the team goes to the WH for a picture and talk with the incumbent President that is at the same level of Russian Oligarchs, the same oligarchs who have systematically stolen wealth from a country with personalized armies of their own killing people for factories and corporations that they desire, oligarchs use that wealth to be enablers for tyrant Putin.

Barmy AF, comparing American self made billionaires with sports teams having pics with a president, to a oligarchy who between 400 of them own 70% of the Russian state economy.

I'm avoiding this thread now.

 

[ToffeeDan]

id rather see holgate and gomes in jail!

Gomes has left and swapped jobs with the Cazoo advert bloke (in case you hadn't noticed) - "Exciting Times" as the Sky Bingo one at Finch Farm might say..

 

[Joey66]

Clearly this thread has morphed into some sort of left/right, right/wrong, he said/she said debating society.

Emotions are high and rightly so, but I guess we are all here to share in the Joy and Impact on Everton, are we not?

Maybe as someone suggested earlier it is time to move it into Current Affairs forum?

UTFT

Theres a political thread for this subject .......

 

[catcherintherye]

Andrei Skoch the second-biggest shareholder in USM is a member of the Russian parliament.

As for the rest please stop the whataboutism. As Evertonians we should be putting our house in order.

Is he part of the inner sanctum? Was he there with Putin the other day with Putins actual inner sanctum making the moves to invade Ukraine?

I think not.

As for whataboutism, its actually called context. We exist within a context. When football makes a decision to disavow any sponsorship money, coming from any country who have invaded and/or occupy other nations, I am wholly on board with this.

Your tactics remind of the British in relation to the Irish dissidents. Demanding they go to truth and reconciliation to detail their crimes. McGuinness always said he would do so, on the sole condition that the British do the same. It all went eerily quiet then.

I've tended to find, the people who point the fingers the most, admire the ones who cry whataboutism when others ask for some semblance of consistency to their approach.

We can disavow our sponsorships, the moment the clubs intercept of Gazprom UCL sponsorships give theirs back. I'm wholly in favour of that approach as well.

 

[gwladysnight]

I've already told you, that America has it's own camps, interning children for the crime of being an immigrant. Why have you denied that is happening?

Or its police force murdering unarmed black civilians based on race? Or the history of lynchings? Or the segregation they lived under? Or the enslavement they lived under? How would you characterise this? Other than to say any criticism is (and I quote) "absurd".

Trump and his supporters should be thrown in jail. If they were in China they'd be in jail, while sleepy Joe the segregationist allows them to walk free.

And USM, by any objective measure are not part of Putins inner circle.

Love your use of the straw man.

Problem is, I haven't denied the obscenity of border camps in the USA. I have repeatedly stated that I do not like the political system in the USA but to compare that to genocide in China is absurd.

For the umpteenth time. The second-biggest shareholder in USM is Skoch a member of Putins government. As for Usmanov it is very easy to see which Oligarchs are part of the Putins inner circle. All of them. Putin is the reason they became Oligarch's in the first place.

 

[catcherintherye]

So when a sports team wins a championship and the team goes to the WH for a picture and talk with the incumbent President that is at the same level of Russian Oligarchs, the same oligarchs who have systematically stolen wealth from a country with personalized armies of their own killing people for factories and corporations that they desire, oligarchs use that wealth to be enablers for tyrant Putin.

Barmy AF, comparing American self made billionaires with sports teams having pics with a president, to a oligarchy who between 400 of them own 70% of the Russian state economy.

I'm avoiding this thread now.

How do you think wealthy Americans made their money? Do you think it is, at least partially, on the back of a country built on slavery.

I suggest you go and read a little Malcolm X and understand how wealth was generated, stolen and horded in American.

And yes, posing for a picture with Donald Trump is exactly the same as doing so with any other leader. It's the same as donating to the Republican Party (As FSG and the Glaziers did). In fact, given the crimes of America and Trump in particular, it's far far worse.

"Self made billionaire" in a country built on slavery and white supremacy. You utter cretin.

 

[gwladysnight]

Is he part of the inner sanctum? Was he there with Putin the other day with Putins actual inner sanctum making the moves to invade Ukraine?

I think not.

As for whataboutism, its actually called context. We exist within a context. When football makes a decision to disavow any sponsorship money, coming from any country who have invaded and/or occupy other nations, I am wholly on board with this.

Your tactics remind of the British in relation to the Irish dissidents. Demanding they go to truth and reconciliation to detail their crimes. McGuinness always said he would do so, on the sole condition that the British do the same. It all went eerily quiet then.

I've tended to find, the people who point the fingers the most, admire the ones who cry whataboutism when others ask for some semblance of consistency to their approach.

We can disavow our sponsorships, the moment the clubs intercept of Gazprom UCL sponsorships give theirs back. I'm wholly in favour of that approach as well.

You get funnier and funnier. By the end of today, you will have brought every nation on the planet into your bizarre attempts to defend Moshiri, Usmanov and Putin. By tomorrow you will be on to the Martians, I expect.

As for Gazprom that is the exact logo that has been removed from the Schalke shirts. Maybe they don't have fans like you though, prepared to abandon all principles if it means a few quid for Everton.

 

[catcherintherye]

Love your use of the straw man.

Problem is, I haven't denied the obscenity of border camps in the USA. I have repeatedly stated that I do not like the political system in the USA but to compare that to genocide in China is absurd.

For the umpteenth time. The second-biggest shareholder in USM is Skoch a member of Putins government. As for Usmanov it is very easy to see which Oligarchs are part of the Putins inner circle. All of them. Putin is the reason they became Oligarch's in the first place.

I'm not sure there is any straw man.

You say it's wrong, but at the same time you call it absurd. A camp is a camp. Do you think some camps are worse than others or something mad like that?

Taking children away from their parents, as young as 7 or 8, to leave them alone in a camp is reprehensible. It's in no way absurd to suggest this is every bit as reprehensible as the actions of other countries. The fact you use that phrase, and have a scant disregard for life, and children's lives, is a bit alarming.

As for Skoch, is he a member of Putins cabinet. I can see no evidence of that. Hes clearly not in the inner sanctum.

 

[bcblue1878]

The point is, the anti-sanctions camp is the one that actually gets to a peaceful solution which saves lives.

Theres needs to be constructive dialogue now. Not a witch hunt singling out businesses on the basis of where they may be head quartered.

That Yanis fella put it right earlier on today. The only solution for this peacefully, is for the US/Russia to come to an agreement. Russian troops to go, in exchange for a guarantee of Ukrainian independence. As he stated, everything else is war mongering and needs to stop.

I'm intrigued as to how you think there can be "constructive dialogue" with Putin - did you not see his bizarre (to put it mildly!) speech/press conference the other night? Seriously you actually think he will agree to pull out now and give Ukraine a guarantee of independence?

We really dont need have a go heroes making ridiculous assertions now. We need some grown up politics, to get in and sort the mess out.

See above re Putin!

Nobody is in favour of Putin, but they are in favour of consistency.

It wouldnt make sense for Putin to invade Estonia or Lithuania (who I believe are in the EU).

It's time for the war mongering to stop, and some calm heads to go and negotiate.

As for China into Taiwan, maybe. That may well be a very good thing for Taiwan, as it has been for the people of Hong Kong to be freed from the tyranny of British imperialism.

See above re Putin, he will only start to negotiate when he's got exactly what he wants! And what he wants won't be subject to any negotiation thereafter!
As for that last bit, truly bizarre! Possibly ask the people of Hong Kong or Taiwan what they'd prefer? Unless of course you agree with the human rights record of China and the way it treats people who don't tow the "party" line, bit similiar to the Russians and North Korea in some ways if not worse!

Largest attack on a sovereign nation since WW2? Err are we just ignoring all the attacks the US have carried out then? Or the bombing campaign in Yemen from Saudi?

There is always a reasoned way out of situation. It just depends how much people want to pursue it in order to save lives.

And of course people know why. Putin has made clear why. We might not like it, or agree with it, but it's very clear what his rational is.

See above re Putin, you cannot reason with a mad man!

There needs to be some serious efforts put in to diffuse the situation. I think that message may be beginning to finally sink in to some war mongering western leaders.

Presumably you are aware that Putin has gone into Ukraine against all international will, its not NATO, America, Britain, or the EU, who are currently trying to bomb the living hell out of Kiev and Kharkiv!

Normally I respect the stuff you post, and you generally talk a lot of sense but I can't quite get my head around the line you are taking on this? The BBC "paedophiles"and the tories all some to be at some form of fault for the actions of a bloke sat in Moscow who quells any form of internal protest by throwing people in the back of vans possibly never to be seen again! May be try stop watching and worrying about the BBC and have a look at Sky News or ITV news and see what Putin and the Chinese are actually up to today!

You say you support the Ukrainian people's right to self determination which they almost certainly will never get if Putin gets his way, yet seem to think its ok for China to have control over the people of Hong Kong and Taiwan who also have the same right to self determination!

As I said bizarre because you generally post good stuff, but as is the way of forums but I'll have to agree to disagree on this particular subject!